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27th July 2017, 06:27 PM #1Senior Member
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Klausz, Scandinavian, Hyvelbänk or Høvelbenk style bench thread plans and ideas
Hello folks
After just about getting my ridiculously large quantity of reclaimed iroko timber prepared into square stock, I am nearly ready to start
choosing the timbers for the bench build.
I have made a bench which was to be "the bench" but I have since seen the pitfalls of my design.
On the bright side I know exactly what height and length I will make it.
The only main thing I might change in the design I seek for, is the leg under the front vice.
Here is an example ...wbench det 1000.jpg
I have unlimited time and materials to work on, and I tend to like overbuilding things.
Maybe some modifications to the tool well ... like Rob Cosman's incorporated ideas with the work light. (newish videos on 2 he made)
I like that idea, but considering welding up a bracket to make the beam stronger, as maybe there might be another vice in future to go there.
I may want to put lids on the tool well, and also thinking about hinges underneath for clamping...
I may want to make sliding deadman(s)... one with peg holes for resting boards while edge planing in the type of front vice above
(I have never seen a design which uses deadmans with this vice though !)
but I was thinking the other deadman with a vice like this one below may be handy in the future for jigs etc...
8dbe61e9c22fadb938811cbcb2d2a258.jpg
So I'm going to start making the top for this, and use the best of the lumber for the job which will be reclaimed door stiles.
I have seen various designs of L-shaped tailvice though, and am a bit indecisive in the best way to do it.
I will be buying basic tailvice and front vice screw hardware for the job
I have unlimited patience and want no sagging on the tailvice, like I've read can occur.
I was thinking of putting two threadbars instead of the one that's usual for the front vice to counter the lack of support underneath.
I couldn't find any build threads on L-shaped tailvice construction, let alone choices of those, Nor a 4 legged bench with front vice,
Sliding deadman with front vice, or just a thread with any other information on dimentions or plans.
The best resource I found is youtube watching Cosmans benches and Mr Carters bench with the wooden threads.
I would love some chat about this, as I have been planning on having a bench for a loooong time
I am considering making some knockdown hardware m12 barrel nuts, so its not gonna be any annoyance to make support for the
Cosman light idea.
I have not chosen on square vs round dog holes as there's benefits to both (that ones for another luthiers forum most likely)
Designs welcome anyway...
Glutton for punishment me
Any other ideas and hurdles appreciated very much.
Thanks for reading folks
Tomas in Ireland
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27th July 2017 06:27 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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28th July 2017, 09:19 AM #2Skwair2rownd
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So how did Ironbark wind up in I|reland??
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28th July 2017, 10:18 AM #3Senior Member
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I take it your referring to iroko? ...I have never heard it called that.
The only nickname I've heard it being called is African teak, but it is not related, as it comes from mainly
Ghana and the Ivory coast, not Bolivia.
Iroko is the main timber used in external applications in Ireland and UK.
Its nearly the only thing I happen to find for doors,frames, and windows the other being red meranti occasionally for doors mainly.
I'm just about done processing it all, and need to use it up to reclaim the space...
For more timber of course
The scavengers workshop could be only described as to adhere to the laws of attraction....
The minute I get some free space I always find a machine or more timber to fill the void.
I'm just about ready to organise it now, and select the chosen timbers.
Here is the latest batch of photos of the stuff I got last week,
I have more piles, but this should be enough for the time being.
I must post another piccy when its stacked
Tomas
SAM_2079.jpg1.JPG2.JPG3.JPG4.JPG
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28th July 2017, 10:20 AM #4
Hi Tomas, welcome to the Forum.
I'm a great advocate for tail vises. I'm surprised you can't find any 'build' threads for these. There's a quick WIP I did for a traditional tail vise in this thread.
Otherwise, benches are very personal things - you make it to suit yourself, so I see no problem in incorporating whatever elements from different traditions if you think they will be useful, so long as they are compatible with your construction. I quite like the 'shoulder' front vise, but have never made one because I've always had limited space, & they take up a bit more room in front than 'standard' steel vises or leg vises. My own solution is a home-made version using a metal tail-vise screw and 1/2" pipe for guides. It took no metal-working skill to build & has served me well for 30 plus years. Its main advantages for me are the long jaws and big spaces between the guides so I can fit things like my saw-vises in it comfortably. It's not that important to me for most routine cabinetry, at least 80% of my bench time is spent using the tail vise.
Cheers,IW
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28th July 2017, 10:36 AM #5Senior Member
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Thanks for your input and the welcome Ian
I shall look up the link you gave.
I do agree with you on the shoulder vice, hence the want to have a 4 legged bench and possibly dual threadbars to mount it,
as I think it may get tight in my rented workshop, and there's always the possibility of me not getting on with it...
I think it looks brill and might pay off in the end, if a possible client seen it, I may get somewhere..
There must be plenty of uses for it though...That's another discussion probably..I've made my mind up on it as being in the design.
Thanks for reading
Tomas
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5th March 2018, 07:25 PM #6Senior Member
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Hello folks
Thought I'd do an update on things.
I have decided to basically make the Klausz design from scratch, as I want this top to be 4" , or more like 4 1/4" maybe...
This would mean that the base I've made would be too high for this bench.
and is the final reasoning I needed to decide to go the whole hog and make the five legged design for the base.
Thankfully in the archives, I have found and been studying Milo's excellent Frank Klausz/European Workbench WIP
Its an absolute monster made from some dense hardwood,
Frank Klausz/European Workbench WIP
I like the idea of making my top that thick throughout all the laminations, but am faced with a problem with the tail vice, as I wish to
build the traditional L-shaped tailvice design.
A good example of it in detail would be in this Youtube video , Carter's workbench.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCEO2n8bXHU
Does the end cap look to be a bit too deep for the tailvice to you?
Would I encounter this problem if I choose to make the entire top 4 1/4" ?
I'm using the competitively priced shoulder and tailvise screws from Veritas, so I can go a bit more compact if needed.
I recall seeing another update video of his, where he mentions that the tailvise screw is positioned too high, and the handle end could be bumped with the work.
I will be orientating the lesser quality ends towards the tailvice, in case I have to hog some major stock off.
It would be nice to know if I could know this before laminating though.
That won't be for a wee while though, as its still at 0 deg Celsius at the moment in Ireland.
Nothing like that weather for making one free a bit of shop space up, from damp auld cabinets full of junk
Awaiting some warmer weather now, just enough time to fettle everything before it all begins
Love to know your thoughts on the tailvise
Here's some pics and waffling on my progress....
Those marked out, old mortise holes will be filled long grain inserts instead of the and grain before.
These were roughed out at an earlier stage, so only requires another wee sliver to get a fresh surface for glue to adhere to.
However, the end grain is getting finessed now at this stage.
SAM_2674.JPG
This timber is surfaced 4 sides, I had to do this twice as I use the bench for reference and this composite, at only an inch thick deflects
I check the flatness of the bench with a piece the length of the entire bench, and make sure it is sitting so you wouldn't get a feeler underneath.
Then I repeat the process with another length of timber the same length.
These pieces should sit together without any gap whatsoever, otherwise you will have a miserable time gauging the stock to thickness.
I ended up using these two lengths as winding sticks after that, and shimmed one corner of the base.
SAM_2683.JPG
Made more space for that fifth leg of the Klausz
SAM_2691.JPG
Thanks for reading
Tomas
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5th March 2018, 10:04 PM #7
Tom, I guess everyone has their own idea of what they need/want in a bench, but can I ask you why you want a 4" top right through? Granted, a bench needs to be solid and hefty, but if you use the Klausz dimensions, with a deep section for the dogs & 2" thick material between there & the tool tray, in just about any old hardwood it will make a top that you will struggle to lift on your own, unless you are a very large & strong young chap. I think Milo would be the first to admit he went a little over the top with his bench! I suppose I'm much more conscious of how much weight a bench really needs to be practical, now I'm getting an a bit. When I made my bench top 35 years ago (it's very close to the Klausz design, but without the shoulder vise), I could lift it onto its legs without turning too blue in the face, but nowadays I would have to call for help to disassemble or reassemble it!
If you are determined to have a 4 1/4" thick top, it will complicate building a traditional tail vise. Bryan (Milo) used a 'modern' tail vise mechanism, which can be fitted to any thickness of bench deeper than the mechanism itself. With a a traditional wood-framed tail vise, a good deal of the vise structure is under the bench
tail vise a.jpg
The end cap for the the vise end is usually a little deeper than the top, so you can fit the outside member/guide of the vise frame in a rebate in the end cap. A typical thickness for this piece is about 2", so the end-cap would needs to be at last 5" deep so you can make a decent notch in it for the guide. THis is what the whle thing looks like assembled: tail vise b.jpg
For a 4" thick top, you'll need front & back end sections of your vise about 6" deep. The whole thing is likely to become a bit massive & unwieldy, methinks.
An alternative would be to saw/chisel/rout out a section of the top where the under-structure of the vise fits, to 2" thick. That would allow you to build a tail vise of more typical proportions.
Just a few thoughts...
Cheers,IW
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6th March 2018, 03:54 AM #8Senior Member
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Thank you Ian
I was hoping I would be able to just saw/chisel/rout out the section for the end cap/tailvise components
I know doing so, might be hard work and wasteful, but I am making this out of reclaimed stock
so I am OK with having this much wastage on my hands, as I am suffering paralysis analysis with this one.
It being much more time and energy consuming, than getting on with it, and actually doing the work!
And the weight aspect...
I'm silly,
I allready have a 300kg bandsaw to lug about...
This bench is not going to complicate things ...I made that decision when I wanted veneer/soundboard cutting capabilities.
Sounds like I'm good to go then, and mindlessly laminate a hefty top without thought for the design altercations
Many thanks
Tom
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2nd December 2019, 03:10 AM #9Senior Member
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Hi folks got the chance to get back on track this year with the bench build
I must have been very tired writing that sentence as real teak grows in Burma which is now known as Myanmar, and not Bolivia
I've since decided to go the full Klausz design, but with some what hopefully turns out to be some minor changes.
Anyway, I have made progress and thought I would take you on a journey of how I went about (including time wasting mistakes an all) salvaging this iroko timber
Its mostly from old door stiles, and it took a bit of a learning curve to cut out and fill the old mortices accurately with long grain inserts.
I wasted a lot of time by doing silly things, so will try and give you an impression on how I would go about this again.
Prepare for lots of photos...
After the denailing, clean up and some swipes from a plane to remove paint/varnish, and a trip to the bandsaw to rough cut away the mouldings..
these old door components get left a while.
After which another few swipes to refine timbers enough to sit on these bearers off of the bench.
Drilling out tenons (2).JPG
Drilling out tenons.JPG
Chisel out tenons 2.JPG
Once I'd get to here with a few, I'd set these aside rather than to keep working on them like I did.
Rough cleaned mortises .JPG
Not a good idea to try and do all at once.jpg
My bench wasn't flat anymore since the last time.
I thought it would be alright checking with a long straight edge, but it was about 3 feet too short, which makes a big difference I was to find out!
I have some door rails shimmed under the bench now, and sealed the ends to make sure.
bench shims.JPG
This is how I test the bench for flatness, an angle poise lamp is unbeatable for this work.
BENCH CHECK.JPG
Here I'm using the blade from a machinists protractor, I have a shorter one for it also, but this long one is far better.
I've also bought a Soba 6" square since for a tenner, Its excellent for the job.
SAM_2697.JPG
If you're doing deep through mortises accurately and you don't have a calipers or another way of making and checking that these ends exactly parallel,
these will not work for you and you will chase your tail.
This caliper gets things accurate for lots and lots of things, and the best way to achieve parallel stock, and to check your mortises.
SAM_2153.JPG
I don't have many chisel shots, but found out having a non cranked handle better for chopping the end grain, followed up by a cranked chisel with a flat back,
and for tricky stuff, a light vintage dovetail chisel with good steel.
Here's an example of why a light chisel is nice
SAM_2898.jpg
Here is another thing I found extremely useful is a blank of aluminium for checking the walls of the mortise.
If you scribble over it with pencil and give it a quick rub on the work it will mark the high spots for ya.
Its a tool that can be much over used though.
It has also proved very handy to check for your edges of the mortise to see it its flush on the edge, rather than swiping off the blackened edges.
SAM_2824.jpgSAM_2945.JPG
Nice and obvious to work to, this thing is also good for marking some awkward spots like this photo from before I was using it I had to rely on using a ruler to stand a square on.
SAM_2942.JPGSAM_2717.JPG
Also very handy for haunched mortises aswell if turned on its side. (sorry lost some pics of that)
SAM_2139.JPG
SAM_2669.JPG
Picture above is a rough clean up of the bottom of the mortise for a haunched tenon,
On these, long grain inserts are tapped from the other side, and routed to have a flat bottom afterwards
Long grain inserts.JPGRouter stop.JPG
Some of these Haunched tenons were too deep for the router to cut, so I had to chisel it out.
This required a long paring chisel, which I made from some spring steel farm machinery component which was dug up from the groundwork.
1.JPG9.JPG15.JPG
Plenty more filling of timbers, I lost a folder somewhere though.
SAM_2238.JPG
Timbers filled, which I thought would be enough
SAM_2289.JPGSAM_2194.JPG
That should be enough for one post.
Back in a bit
Tom
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2nd December 2019, 05:22 AM #10Senior Member
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Hi again
From then on it was laminating those long beams into sections
SAM_2981.JPGSAM_2999.JPG
Starting to look like a bench
SAM_2893.JPGSAM_3029.JPG
Next to work on the dog strip section
I chose to make them at 88 degrees, and cut them with a damaged old builders tenon saw, as I have yet not fully delved into the rabbit hole that is restoring old saws, a nice wee winter project to come.
knocked out the waste, cleaned up to depth with a router and paired the rest with a chisel.
I was lucky that I got away with those sawing shenanigans!
I plan on making the Cosman "a better bench dog" design, so made no relief in the bench for pads.
and hope I can get it to work on 3/4" wide dogs, we shall see!.
Bench dogs.JPGBench dogs 2.JPGBench dogs 3.JPG
And the Heat was on! ... to get these long timbers laminated up, before the winter came with its mighty wrath.
SAM_3033.JPG
SAM_3042.JPG
tent.JPG
Tent2.JPG
Something went a bit awol when clamping the dog core, and I had to laminate some filler strips underneath to make up the 4" top.
I should have made sure my stock had a square face so I could have clamped a baton to keep it aligned.
Won't make that mistake again!
SAM_3100.jpg
It got too cold to be heating the uninsulated workshop, and the long stuff was done, so I done some work on a table for gluing inside the house
If I were designing a table for gluing from scratch, it would be a lot different than this, as I often have hazardous bars in three positions.
It took me three rounds of glue ups to make one end cap,
First a pair of 1 and 3/8" to make up the 4" thickness, then two 2" 1/2" laminates in between before the final glue up, leaving plenty of meat for final dimentioning.
quick fix table.JPGa heavier blanket needed.JPG
I've just finished the end caps so I am going to make the base.
I need to make space in the workshop, I wanted the stuff the bench top was resting on for making the end caps, but thought it might be easier digging for other stock as that top
is 4" throughout
End caps laminated.JPG
I didn't realise that there was also an article in the Scott Landis workbench book PDF I have
This explains a few things thankfully.
The plans call for 2 3/4" trestles, this seems too delicate to me, especially since my top is on the heavy side.
I was messing around today with some stock to try and see what looked right.
I suspect it might be a good idea to have the end caps fitted to get a better impression though.
This is a piece at 80mm wide which I don't think looks too far off... a bit dainty if anything.
I will more than likely have a lot of stock to remove if it were this wide, so my question is,
What would too far over the top be in regards to aesthetics be?
80mm.JPG
Probably going to stick to the specified length of the base design, so the shoulders on the stretchers will be shorter.
I can make shorter dogs if it should foul the trestles.
I'm still thinking over the base design as I think I might like to make it something like this with the low stretcher.
I find it handy on my bench to grab it with my foot to get power for heavy paring.
Although I'm not sure if it would be useful on a bench without a flush base design, so might leave it out.
It makes for easier cleaning underneath anyways, and I always will have the other bench to work on.
I was thinking it would simplify a mobile base design I had in mind, but that probably can be dealt with by other methods.
Here's another bench with those features I was thinking of doing.
One other thing that could be a deal breaker is the top stretcher although possibly annoying, might be necessary for keeping the top from dipping
and it would be easier as its the same deal as with my bench.
One things for certain though, I don't want to ever hit my knee off of a stretcher whilst planing wide stock again, which is definitely the most annoying thing on my current bench.
I wonder if the recessed leg design eliminates this from the equation?
01.jpg
I have other questions like making two tails on that dovetail instead of the giant single dovetail on the shoulder vise.
In the Landis book, Klausz mentions shoulder vices broke occasionally, so it makes me a bit fearful of doing so.
I haven't made the section for the shoulder vice yet, and was thinking of copying Cosman's bench using a full 4" piece block and routing a groove
instead of making it an inch thick and doing it like Frank's.
I have bought the Veritas screws already, and wondering if it will sag or if other problems might occur from not having the chop longer and held inbetween the top and the trestle?
It makes me wonder if this is why Rob got screws made for him?
Another thing is on at least two of Frank's benches, the end vice part of the tailvice doesn't close home, and is seemingly something under 2" from closing.
Is this to save you from doing about 10 revolutions?
Hope you might be able to shine some light on things
Thanks folks
Tom
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2nd December 2019, 07:44 AM #11GOLD MEMBER
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An interesting read Tom, and the pictures really help with the story. I note that you aren't short on clamps!
I am sure you will enjoy working on the new bench, it should last a lifetime.
Very impressive job indeed.
Alan...
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2nd December 2019, 09:19 AM #12Senior Member
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Thanks Alan
It aint built yet though!
I must revisit some Klausz bench build threads to get a better idea of the thickness I want for the trestles, I was a lot more concerned
about the design for the top at the time I went through them.
I Will be analyzing those threads before I start selecting stock for the trestles.
Once I have a better idea I can proceed.
Hopefully this bench won't be a big pain in the , it seems like I will have to rearrange the workshop a bit to make it work.
I will have to churn out some stuff to regain the space again once this is finished.
I might make another top for the current bench and have it as a rougher workbench, or possibly for long stuff like door stiles
as I want this one for instrument making.
I am thinking of making this one useable from the back of the bench aswell, so can plane without the shoulder in the way.
That's way down the road yet, and it probably involves metal.
Plenty of research to do, and no rush now I'm not racing against the elements, so will tap away at it.
Thanks for reading
Tom
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2nd December 2019, 09:32 AM #13
Wow, Tom, you chose the long way round - I would've been losing my enthusiasm before I got all those door stiles ready for action! Sure makes life easier (at least as far as acquiring material goes) when the land you live in is well-served with hard, heavy woods good for bench-making.
To address some of your questions/musings:
If you're following he Klausz design, you don't need a top rail or 'stretcher', the base is constructed as a self-supporting unit and the girder strength in the top is more than enough to support itself and any sensible load it's expected to carry (your top is thick enough to support non-sensible loads, I reckon!). My bench is essentially the Klausz design (without the shoulder vice). Bench red.jpg
The undercarriage will be self-bracing if you make the middle stretchers deep (wide?) enough and use bolts to pull the stretchers against the legs, as per the original design. This makes a very sound structure. Iirc, Klausz just sits his top on the undercarriage, using a couple of thick dowels to locate it & stop it from sliding about. I used a 3/8" coach screw through each top rail to hold my top, partly so I can lift & push the bench around on occasion (not that I do much of that nowadays, I can barely budge the thing!). I would have preferred to make the stretchers on my bench a bit deeper than they are (125mm), but that was the best I could manage at the time. I thought I might need to replace them with wider boards some time down the track, but what I used has done the job. The bench has been doing yeoman service for 35 plus years, with never a hint of wracking. My top is thinner than yours, mostly 2" thick except for the dog area, and hard Maple, which has a density (0.7) only very slightly more than Iroko (0.66 according to the Wood Database). It's still plenty heavy & solid with no bounce whatever, so your top should give you all the weight & solidity you could desire with room to spare.
The amount of overhang of the top for a typical tail vise isn't a worry -this is a time-tested design, and unless there is something odd about Iroko as a structural material, sag & droop will be the least of your worries (as far as the bench is concerned, anyway ). My tail-vise is the traditional all-wood design (including the screw). These are designed to be self-supporting. If made correctly, there should be very little sagging for at last a couple of generations of use, and so far, there is no discernible wear in mine, which has had a LOT of use. If it does wear & become saggy & sloppy, it can be dismantled & fixed by anyone who takes the time to inspect & understand the mechanism, but that will be a job for someone several generations away, yet. The way the Veritas & other steel-slide end vises are made, sag shouldn't be a concern for another half-dozen generations again, at least!
I've forgotten how Klausz made his shoulder vise - I elected to install a conventional style front vise on my bench, because I had very restricted space when I made it, and that shoulder vise sticking out another 3 or 4 hundred millimetres would have been a severe risk to my future reproductive prospects, I reckoned! I do remember the first article I saw on making one of these "European" style shoulder vises (Tage Frid's) in which the main tension member is a length of all-thread which went right through the vise & bench top. The wooden joint on the left that connects the fixed front piece of the vise to the end-cap is placed under compression when the vise is tightened, so I can't see that using one or two dovetails makes any difference. You could get away with a simple half-lap or even a butt joint, as long as you make them the right way round. Dovetailing the joint is as much about appearance as anything...
And finally, the 'gap' on the end-piece of the tail vise is there for a purpose - so no-one will be tempted to use that part as a vise! The design of the vise frame is such that all forces should be kept in line with, & close to the axis of, the moving jaw or 'chop'. The outrigger frame attached to the cross-piece at the end is to brace the vise against slewing when the moving jaw is loaded, the relatively flimsy joints of that part of the frame is adequate for the job it's meant to do, but not sufficiently robust to tolerate the forces it would cop if you put something in there & wound the screw up tightly. In any case, the steel-slide vises don't need a frame, so there won't be an end-piece other than the cosmetic end-cap most people make, so it won't be an issue for you.
Cheers,IW
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2nd December 2019, 10:07 AM #14Senior Member
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Thanks Ian
I didn't know that about not using the end vice part of the tailvice.
That can probably be sorted with steel if I were to want to use it at a later stage.
l will take heed and not use it unless something screams out for the use of it.
The sagging or slop was more of a concern about the shoulder vice if choosing to go with Rob Cosman's full thickness section, can be seen @ 7 :44 into the video below.
I wonder if the little tongue on the chop will bind or sag using a regular type metal screw vice, compared with the tongue on the Klausz plans what looks to be the length of the shoulder core block?
Only one way to find out I suppose
Any vice shure beats having no vice!
I am thinking I might be adventurous and risk going with two tails on that, bought a length of stainless steel threadbar.
Re- on the base again
The plans call for 2 3/4" wide x 3 1/2" deep trestles, did you stick to these plans?
Thanks
Tomas
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2nd December 2019, 12:19 PM #15
Tom sticking with plans isn't one of my fortes! I tend to go with what I've got, as long as I think it will be up to at least minimum specs for the purpose. I was living in Canada when I made that bench, & hardwood wasn't as abundant or as easy to come by in skips as it is here in Oz, so I was forced to buy wood for the top (against all my principles!). I had some Maple which I'd rough-cut out of a downed tree on a friend's place and it cleaned up to about 3.5 x 3" (90 x 70mm to be precise), so that's what my legs and foot pieces are (I had to go & measure them, I couldn't have told you that after all this time!). I think they are aesthetically ok on this fairly large bench (a bit over 1.8M long), and they are definitely robust enough.
I have made slightly smaller benches with legs more like 65 x 65 and they looked ok. This one is a bit over 1.5M long, from memory, and is made from recycled (mostly) Spotted gum (Corymbia maculata). That has a S.G.close to 1 so weight & rigidity are not a worry: Recyc SG bench.jpg
This is my current 'portable bench' I made a couple of yeas ago (my previous 'portable' became un-portable due to advancing age (mine) so I had to down-size). It's a bit taller than my regular bench and made from Eucalyptus tereticornis (aka Forest Red Gum, or Blue-gum in Queensland, where I now live). E. tereticornis is a wood which is even denser than Spotted Gum at an air-dry density >1. You could argue that the 60 x 60 legs do look a bit more spindly on this one, but they are as rigid as can be, & do the job well enough I can do heavy planing on it. Twin-screw vise.jpg
In all the years I've used my bench, I can't say I was ever even tempted to hold something in the end of my tail vise - there are so many other holding opportunities with the dogs and the actual jaws of the tail vise, it just isn't necessary for anything I make. We started this thread about the various ways people use their benches/vises & auxiliary holding devices, so that will give you an idea where I come from when I rabbit on about vises. The tail vise is far & away the most-used holding device on my bench.
To understand the guts of a 'traditional' tail vise, I did a WIP of one here: If I understand you correctly, the 'tongue' you are referring to is made on the front member of the vise & rides in a groove in the bench top. I didn't include it in the vise I pointed to. I did follow Frank K., & included the tongue on my own big bench, but after 20-odd years of use, with not a sign of sag, the tongue wasn't even rubbing on the bottom of the groove enough to make a mark. The groove in the bench becomes a receptacle for sawdust which any spilled liquids turn into powerful filler, and it has to be cleaned out occasionally. So I questioned its necessity and am now happy to leave that feature out - I reckoned I was better off without it...
Cheers,IW
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