Thread: Boat building costs.

Marc,
The answer to your query depends on
1. Can you buy what you want, or do you want something a bit different?
2. Has someone already built what you want, is now tired of it and wants to sell?
3. Do you consider that the building is just as much fun as the enjoyment of the finished craft?
I built my TS and had a huge amount of pleasure in the process. Shortly after, circumstances required me to have the beautiful creation valued. The commercial valuation was thousands below the cost of building, but I wouldn't have swapped the experience for anything!
On the other hand, when I was racing 14' dinghys, I could cover the costs of building and rigging a new boat every 2 or 3 years by selling the old one.
If you just want to get on the water, BUY.
If you want the exquisite joy of building the ultimate in water craft and then flaunting the result to the world, GO FOR IT!
Cheers
Graeme

And then some of us walk to the beat of a different drummer

Its all in the journey

As Greame says if you just want to go sailing buy one and get to it... if however you want to KNOW your boat everything every nook and cranny every screw every peice of timber every single thing about it... build it.

Depends on the drummer you walk to mate

Part of any journey is the preparation before the journey begins thats as important as the journey itself which is more important than the actual end of the journey... am I making sence?

Is building a wooden boat economical?

I guess it depends on your value of the fun involved. If you consider that a movie ticket at $15 gives you around an hour and a bit of fun then boatbuilding looks pretty fine indeed.

Television costs very little and mostly is just about worth what you pay.

So I guess the options are either to watch television and get nothing or build a boat and get lots of fun for your expenditure.

How's this for a rationalisation?
If the money spent pays for fun:
then the materials come for free!

If boatbuilding is not fun (in some sort of way) it is probably better not to undertake it unless you are highly motivated to get a good boat on the water by the cheapest method known ie by not having to pay anyone for the labour.
______________________________

But more seriously ...

What is a wooden boat worth...?

The obvious (and slightly comedic) answer - is what someone is prepared to pay ...

... and here my experience with people in Wooden Boat Associations and also customers that I have seen build their boat and then go on to sell it a year or a decade later gives me the general understanding that ...

1/ If the boat looks nice and works and is of a reasonably marketable type (not too weird) then in a reasonably short period you can sell it for the cost of materials.

2/ If you are prepared to wait then you might sell it for something like the price of a secondhand fibreglass boat of a similar type (if that is more than the price of materials - for example with fibreglass canoes - usually they go for a song so not a fair comparison with your nice plywood or strip canoe)

Hint: One neat trick is if you can get the person out in your boat and make sure they have a nice day or few hours then they are more likely to see a good price (for you!) as being reasonable. Make sure they do most of the steering if it is a sailing boat - but take over if coming into wharves or the like.

The last possibility is if the right person comes along - who can see the real value of the materials and labour and they fall a bit in love with it - then you can cover you labour in full or in part as well.

I've only ever sold one boat to the right person! All 12lbs of it in this pic



The only warning is that often restoration is the most expensive type of boatbuilding - if you are doing it to use the boat - the fun factor above often makes it worthwhile. But as far as selling - unless the boat tweaks someones historical interest or looks pretty smashing then you probably won't get back the costs of restoring it.

But even if you don't get all your money back - providing you had fun either building and/or using it probably works out as not being much cost in that scheme of things.

MIK

If there was any reasonable market for wooden boats, I wouldn't have four of them sitting around here after variously building or resfurbishing them. You get attached to them and can't really come to terms with the fact that very few others value them as you do.

A friend of mine had seven at last count for the same reason.

Someone else I know has a 24 foot traditional carvel construction sailboat that he would practically give away to anyone who would love her like he does (and fix her up!)

I'm afraid the heart rules the head when it somes to wooden boats. I don't know if the same thing happens with plastic ones. Hard to imagine....

For an ever so slightly different slant on the same topic:

If you can't afford the boat of your dreams, AND you have the ability to spend time (which you don't mind not valuing, or putting a nominal value on), building a boat yourself will give you the means of realising your dream, and will also equip you with a complete understanding of how the systems (structural and otherwise) work, so you will also be able to repair and maintain it VERY economically.

On a smaller scale, you could find yourself after a few weekends and a few hundred dollars, with a boat which would have cost many thousands to buy new. (See the PDracer! ) while at the other extreme, I know many people who have given up work for a full time stint at boat building to build the cruising cat of their dreams over a year or two.

The economics of that are interesting: Boat building labour can be had at the moment for around $30 per hour which works out at a tad under $50k per year. In order to pay someone that amount, you will have to use dollars you've already paid tax on, (and GST) which means that for every $30 net you fork out, you'll have to earn close enough to $45.00 (before tax). So valuing your time is a relatively simple exercise.

Boat builders have other costs though: rent, marketing and advertising, bank charges, electricity (more than just a few power tools in the shed), specialist tools that have to be amortised across the job, insurance, licences, payroll tax etc etc etc, and all of those have to be built in to the cost of the job.

It is not possible to build any new boat in a factory for less than the cost of doing it at home using volunteer labour.

On the other hand, as with all things, inevitably a great deal will arise in a "near new" second hand product if you wait long enough.

Hmmm...

Have I said anything new?

Have I said anything?

P

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

(See the PDracer! )

Which prompts me to ask if any PDRacers will be sailing in the regatta at Lake Cootharaba on Australia Day weekend?

(Sorry about the hijack...)

Originally Posted by Boatmik

But as far as selling - unless the boat tweaks someones historical interest or looks pretty smashing then you probably won't get back the costs of restoring it.

MIK

I would have agreed with you Mik just one slight problem... see for a while now Ive been keeping an eye on one of William Fifes stunning beauties for sale here in Aussie for a song... she has a very long and brilliant history and providence and is from both brokers comments by phone still seaworthy... but she is for sail for what amounts to a song given what and who she is and who designed and built her

Oh look she is still for sale!!

"William Fife 50ft Classic Sloop. ‘Eun na mara’, (formerly Culwalla 111), is one of Australia’s most famous yachts. Launched in 1907, she won the prestigious Sayonara Cup in 1910, the 2001 IRC Australian Championships and Hamilton Race Week. Built from Huon pine with a magnificent Mahogany interior fit out and over six foot of headroom. New mast and rigging in 2000. Fourteen bags of sails. New Lewmar winches. New 30hp Volvo Penta engine with two blade folding prop. Forward owner’s cabin with electric toilet, traditional galley and saloon with fridge, LPG stove, dining table and quality upholstery. AYF cat three safeties. Full set of boat covers. Immaculate! Phone Leigh today on 0412538576 for additional photos and a concise inventory"

"Make WILLIAM FIFE 50 ft
Model CLASSIC SLOOP
Metres 15.24
Year Made 1907
Feet 50
Hull Mono
Power Sail
Usage Leisure
Currency AUD
Price $195,000"

.

$195,000 Now that price does not relect her true value

Also another Ive been keeping a weather eye on is the legendary "Fritha" who at $750,000US also doesnt reflext her true value... what the prices do reflect I think is more the market itself... in that the market has in my view at least become saturated with the plastic steel and ali alternatives and the newer styles that show the age and such of such beauties as just these two... the market seems to want the new the flash the gawdalmighty revolting... and so an illusion within the market is starting I think to be promoted that woodenboats are no seaworthy too much work and cost far more to maintain

Which as we all know is PREPOSTEROUS!! ... ooh do shut up Shane!! dont you friggin realize that as such boats as those you note above go down in price the more bloody chance you have of getting hold of one!!! I mean imagine owning William Fifes 1907 Culwalla 111

Originally Posted by onthebeachalone

Which prompts me to ask if any PDRacers will be sailing in the regatta at Lake Cootharaba on Australia Day weekend?

(Sorry about the hijack...)

More information??

P

Originally Posted by Marc

I know this is a very general question hard to answer but I'll try anyway.

You were right weren't you. The answers above show what a complex question it is.

Originally Posted by Marc

How do costs rate when boat building compared to market prices for the finished product? Is it actualy economical to build a wooden boat?

If by economical you mean it's cheaper to build one than buy one because you want to go paddling, then with the exception of a couple of stitch and glue canoes, (okay, and the PD), NO, it's not cheaper. But that might not be the point.

The complexity of peoples answers above is because they build their boats for entirely different reasons to that, and they answer your question in that context. Read through some of the longer posts in this forum and you will see that it's as much or more about the journey, than it is about the destination. There is discussion on the timbers, the tools, what happens if I tweak this width or that length, what are the physics around why it floats and handles like it does and what does different loads do to that. It's a passion.

Simple answer is, if you are going to build a boat because you want to experience the journey, then build one, don't buy one. Read all the posts, understand the passion, and get drawn into it. It'll get you. You can't build one while remaining detached from the process. This much I've learned from reading these threads.

If you want to just go paddling or fishing, then buy one and paddle or fish.

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

More information??

P

Yes! More Informationa Please OnTheBeach!!!

If it is a silly historical and wooden boat regatta it would be a great stir.

MIK

Hey Mik, I know you're without a car. If you ever want to attend a boating function somewhere and need some wheels, include me in your contact list please. I'm not always able to travel (because of kids) but by cripes, some things you just HAVE to get to

Richard

Wow, thanks so much for the many responses. I will give some more information about myself.

I am a carpenter/cabinet maker/blacksmith/electrician/diesel mechanic that has at some stage of his life worked professionally in said occupations but I do not consider myself a professional. The last 5 years I have worked on building / renovating some properties I own after hours and weekends.
I am looking for a new hobby and I would like to go back to wooden boats, particularly working boats with inboard engines, something I grew up with a long time ago.

I came across your thread about the Simmons sea skiff and I thought that would be a nice project to get started and learn a bit about boat building, to progress to what I really would like to build, something like this
http://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=219
Or this one
http://www.glen-l.com/designs/workboat/dsn-noy.html

Now my hypothesis is that I could build say a Simmons skiff, sell it but not at a loss meaning materials plus some reasonable value for my labour, to progress to a Hercules or similar craft with a nice slow diesel engine, enjoy it for a while and sell it again to build some other more challenging project.

Now all of that is possible providing I can learn the skills necessary, can build a shed of the right proportions to harbour this crafts, ( I already have tools and machinery) have tolerant neighbours who will not burn my shed down due to the noise, and find a market for my finished product.
You comments seem to indicate there is no real market for wooden crafts, however it is the same with furniture and when everyone will tell you you cannot sell furniture at cost, you can sell and make a profit with furniture with some artistic value not mass produced.
So those are my thoughts so far. What do you think?

oooh you bloody devil you!!! you know me well The Noyo Trawler has like the St Valery by Bolger been at the top of my hit parade for many years now... although I would leave the Noyo in its original format ala...



I just like that aesthetic authentic fishin boat of yester year look

Now youve given some of your resume and intents... I say

Buy the plans talk about the plans ask questions about the plans AND THEN... BUILD IT!!

Satisfaction guaranteed

See another thing is that you WONT buy anything like what you want... it just wont be right for you something not quite there you know? ONLY YOU by building it yourself will achieve that

I also think that one of the biggest things is the fact that if you buy one you really wont KNOW for absolute sure what level of skill was used what materials were used how it all went together UNLESS you build it its always going to be a question for you... well it is for me See if I build it I KNOW for a living breathing absolute FACT what timber has been used where it came from how it was cut planed routed what screws were used what glues were used what epoxy was used what timber what ply I will KNOW every single thing about what went into creating the boat... and that is part of the journey KNOWING that YOU KNOW what went into it being what it is... buying really is a bit of a guesswork thing unless the providence can be proved and unless the previous owners were consistant with and dedicated to their maintenance plans with nothing at all left to chance nothing at all given a halfassed maintenance job unless that can be proven then its a bloody guess.

I think maybe Im a tad more pedantic than most when it comes to second hand boats that need work when bought... I like to take them back to BARE timber get right down there NO MATTER how clean it looks how good it looks go right back to basics and CHECK! Cause I dont KNOW weather the maintenance was carried out I dont know if the previous owners ACTUALLY did any work on the frames keel horn stem whatever UNLESS I go down and clean it down to have a look! some dont do that... and heck some times they get away with it and they have a great old time but then sometimes things go wrong... and mate for me if Im going to have my family kids friends onboard I want to be sure theyre as safe as I can make them starting with the boat itself

I think also that one should FORGET the idea of the resale thing... cause if you do you may well change your design choice again and again and again AND AFRIGGINGAIN!! Just build the boat you want mate and then down the track if you have had enough of it or want to move up then sell it... dont try to guess the market for 5 years down the track

I say build it but thats just me

Thank you for the encouragement Dingo, piti you live so far away, would love to have you around from time to time to check on my progress.

So you like this one then. I love it too particularly coupled with the background noise of a slow diesel engine bombombombom.

One question, what's with the mast so far to the stern.
I have never seen a sail so far back. Does it work?
I like the idea and I suppose it would save some fuel if you want to go for a long trip.
One more. Would this be a suitable vessel to go from Sydney to NZ or that is a bit too ambitious for this one?

Would you have a guesstimate of the total cost of materials and total (average) man/hours of work involved for the Noyo trawler?
You dont like the Hercules?