Frame/Bow saws (anti-hijack thread)

[Clinton1]

There was a risk of a hijack on Andy Mac's Hammer handle thread. In order to not peeve Andy off, I refrained from hijacking, then couldn't help myself.... now I'll start the hijack as a new thread.
Bow and Frame saws:
Derek Cohen posted this http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ghlight=bowsaw
This bloke has good pics/links: http://www.geocities.com/plybench/bowsaw.html
This bloke (& isn't he hairy!) has made a Frame saw http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/frame_saw.php3

I don't want to reinvent to wheel: the links above show the how and the finished item - I have other outcomes/objectives for starting this thread.

Background:
on a hammer handle thread a hijack on re-using bandsaw blades as the blade in a Bow saw was started (I think!)
Mention was made of the difficulty in drilling HSS blades and spot annealing was brought up (heating the drill spot to soften the metal prior to drilling).

Bodgy wanted to know about purchasing Bowsaws in Australia that had a tensioner made from cable/wire, as he does not like the ones that use thread/string/rope to apply the tension. The prohibitive cost of importing one saw blade from Europe/America was annoying/stopping him.

I am making a framesaw at the moment and am playing with ideas
I will make the frame saw blade from bandsaw blades, and eventually hope to make a multi-blade framesaw that cuts using a guide - this will be used to cut thin (2mm thick finished) veneers of my favourite, expensive and difficult to get timber. I also restore Tunbridgeware boxes, so it will be time saving for that. The restoration is for love as there is no $ in it. Info on Tunbridgeware can be found here: http://www.teamuseum.org/tunbridgeware.php

The frame saw is one of about 10 jobs that I have - I like having lots of little projects as my bodgy backs means some I can't do except at long intervals. I prefer hand tools, its a personal preferance. If I had a bandsaw I could do what I want in 1/10th of the time, however I like the "doing", not the "having done" if you get my drift.

Cobalt tipped drills cut through HSS (and Bi-metal) bandsaw blades 'easily'. I lightly punch the blade to create a starting point for the drill. I then drill at 1/2 the overall diameter, then re-drill to the full diameter. Both drills are Cobalt drills.

The material I have was free. I went to my local saw doctor and he pulled @ 2 m long pieces out of his scrap bin. I could have taken the lot, as he pays to have the bin dumped anyway. I was given 3 pieces of HSS bandsaw blades at different TPI. I also got one 2 m piece of bi-metal (13% carbide) blade. This is off a steel H/I/U beam cut-off saw from a local factory.
The bi-metal blade blunts my saw file like nothing I've seen. The carbide means it wears very slowly. The piece I'm using has been used to cut steel, and it is cutting 30 x 30 mm Messmate in one pass. I wrapped a rag around my hand and pulled it across the messmate. 3 'draws' of around 500mm each cut through. Insert Big Kev comment!

My intention in starting this thread is:
1. To comment on the availablity of bandsaw blades off-cuts that can be obtained free. The bi-metal usually costs $36 per foot. You'll need a good relationship with your saw doctor - which is a good thing for all concerned.
2. To bring up the framesaw subject and to ask about teeth patterns - does anyone have a large toothed 3 bevel japanese style sawblade they can scan and post a pic of?
3. To request for comments on alternative teeth patterns that allow cutting on the push and pull strokes that may be suited for adopting to the bandsaw blade when used in this mode.
4. To ask if anyone has, or has heard of, a multi-blade framesaw that can be used for cutting 'almost veneers'.

Hope that I've prompted someone to think of a way to put these offcuts to use, and I would appreciate any input.
Oh and I know I wouldn't need a framesaw/bowsaw if I had a bandsaw, but .... I'm too cheap to buy one and too scared to use one.

[Bodgy]

Well done Clinton.

A little background as to where I'm coming from. I recently read a WW book by some Seppo called Guiidice. He makes for an interesting read, very opinionated in what he does and his methods. A lot could be disguarded as his personal preference, however his pictures and stats bow saws versus all others, ripping and Xcutting are compelling. He shows charts of comparative speeds using the German or Danish (steel wire not string) bow saw. It substantially outperforms all others. A lot of this is due to the blade I think. About 50mm wide, impulse hardened and he tested both 5 & 9 TPI. Japanese origin.

I also watched a video on ww joints by a Kraut, Franz something or other, where he used the same saw and swore by it. He cut through a 50x50 piece of hardwood in about 5 strokes, there in front of the camera. So guru's/sensei in US and Europe both endorse these saws. Hence gotta get one.

Problem with making one, apart from one's own ineptitude, is sourcing the correct blade?

If I do buy one this will be it:

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com...1ab3d12395f6f0

Look forward to others input.

[Andy Mac]

Hi Bodgy and Clinton,

I'm pleased to see some discussion on the bowsaw, because I reckon they're a wonderful tool, and not many woodies seem to have one. Ideal for bodging, that is working with green and round timber, but also a fast tool in the workshop. I reach for mine often, think of it as a big coping saw, something Darkside when the bandsaw is unnecessary A big version can be quite effective ripping too, or cutting big curves.
The main problem is getting blades, but I simply reuse bandsaw stock, right up to 3/4" x 4tpi. I vaguely remember reading some expert that thought there was too much set on a standard bandsaw, and the cut of a bowsaw equipped with one was prone to cut "inaccurately". My opinion is they aren't meant to be accurate, within reason!
I do have a commercial one, a Marples brand from UK, and it started my interest in them, but with all modesty I think the homemade ones work just as well . The standard blade is not overly strong, tends to bend. Admittedly I haven't used one with a wire, cable or solid rod strainer, so haven't compared them against string.
Attached is a plan from a nice booklet by Charles Hayward, bought in a secondhand bookshop. A couple of comments about his plan: one is he says the blades are bought, as are the handles...off-the-shelf items! Easy to turn yourself, but lacking a lathe shouldn't completely stop you, as a hand-worked handle isn't difficult. My trick for the metal rod inserts is to drill a tapping hole into the end of the handles, tap a thread (yes, into wood) to suit a good lengthed bolt (say 150mm x M10). Screw in the bolt with Araldite in the hole, and when dry hacksaw off the head before cutting/filing the flat where the blade will sit. Drill a hole through this section to snuggly take a pin (ie. a nail or something harder) making sure its at a slight angle to locate the blade, knock in the pin and peen the end. If its filed to the same height as the diameter of the bolt shank, these will now go through the frame holes. Drill the ends of the blades with the next sized bit. All the woodwork on the bowsaw is staright forward, and as he says, scale up or down to suit your needs.
Unfortunately Clinton, I can't help you with a multiblade veneer saw, haven't seen one in the flesh, but did spy one on a website recently. It was a link from this forum, a French guy showing of his workbench and vice setup. I think Wood Butcher sent it!?

Cheers,

[bsrlee]

Multi-blade bow saws were used to cut horn & bone combs, before the invention of injection molded plastic - and are still used to make combs for 're-enactors'.

The simplest design I have read of uses a hacksaw & washers - place 1 blade on with the teeth up, washer, blade with teeth right way round - if there is enought space -repeat. The wrong-way blade is the guide & you cut slots at a constant pitch depending on the thickness of the washers. As you progress the wrong-way blade is moved over into the last slot cut.

For a frame saw you would have problems with the blades being off the centre-line of the tension. I suspect you would need an even number of blades (including the guide) and drill all the fixing holes at the same time so the lengths are the same. Thread all the blades & washers onto a high tensile bolt, with the middle 'washer' being an oval piece that has a hole in each end - one hole for the bolt, one hole for the fixing peg on the frame saw.

Very large water powered multi-blade frame saws were used by the mid-14th Century to gang saw planks in Europe - see Villard de Honnecourt's (sp?) manuscripts.

[echnidna]

Unfortunately Clinton, I can't help you with a multiblade veneer saw, haven't seen one in the flesh, but did spy one on a website recently. It was a link from this forum, a French guy showing of his workbench and vice setup. I think Wood Butcher sent it!?

Cheers,

I remember seeing that website but didn't book mark it, hope someone did as the veneer saw had a guide for cutting the veneers.

[Andy Mac]

Here's a link to the veneer saw that I noticed a few weeks back...scroll down a few pictures when you get there. Hard to tell exactly, but maybe it only has one blade, and looking at the configuration it might need two people to operate!
http://pages.infinit.net/perrons/Pau.../woodvise.html
Thanks for the link, Wood Butcher

Cheers,

[Wood Butcher]

Here's a link to the veneer saw that I noticed a few weeks back...scroll down a few pictures when you get there. Hard to tell exactly, but maybe it only has one blade, and looking at the configuration it might need two people to operate!
http://pages.infinit.net/perrons/Pau.../woodvise.html
Thanks for the link, Wood Butcher

Cheers,

Thank you Andy, I lost the link and had no idea where the picture was. I spent over an hour last night trying to find it again!!!

[Clinton1]

Hmmm, where to start?
Bodgy - don't suppose you have a bit more info on the book &/or the blade? As for the best blade to use, I'll start with the HSS blades and try different combo's. No sense in reinventing the wheel if the book author has done his research though. I'm really quite interested in the book - so any info on the title, author, ISBN would be appreciated.

brslee - Yes, I saw the large water mill Frame saws - a bandsaw 4 wheels from what I saw. Interesting info on the comb making. In regards to the tension/off-line issue, I am thinking about a through mortise that is stepped. The blade mounts in blocks that sit in that and slide. Either that or use Sailtrack? I'd prefer something made with brass blocks for the look. As for keeping all the blocks in the correct position I wonder if a "push clamp" that fits in the slot between the end of the mortice and the last block (one on each side) would work. Don't know how my explanations go, I have bodgy drawings, but can't scan them cause the printer/scanner is on the blink.

Andy/Wood butcher - that link is great. An interesting guy. The veneer saw seems to be a single blade, with guide 'stretchers' - does that seem about right?

I'm thinking that I'll use the KISS principle and do a single blade frame saw first. Then one with the veneer guides. Then step up to the multi-blade. I'm sure I'll keep harassing you all with a questions - Now what wood should I go for? Light, strength, nice clean grain, minimal movement, easy availability...

[Bodgy]

Clint. The blade on all the demo's I've seen has been around 50mm in depth. I have seen the thing in use in ww video's, all by Taunton Press. One that sticks in mind was on mortice and tenon joints by Franz Kaunst or something. The book, which only briefly mentions bow saws is by Anthony Guidice. I wouldn't recomend buying either. I use the local library. If yours is computerised, just run a search on the topic and they'll come up.

It seems the deep blade is the key and the difference that gives you the accuracy??

[Wood Butcher]

Clinton,
I think you are right in your summation about that saw. IMHO the best thing to do would be to keep the stretchers fixed length and tension the blade similar to a hacksaw. The best thing about that saw is that you could vary the spacing on either side to cut veneers of a thick piece of timber.

I would be very keen to see any pictures if you decide to build one of these as I have been thinking of making one myself.........sometime!

[Clinton1]

I've got a 35 mm blade - I'll keep my scab radar alert for 50 mm as well.

That veneer saw is a good set up isn't it? As for the pics - I'm a slow mover, and I need a digi camera, but I'll post what I can, when I'm there.
I'm considering getting a Lumberwolf handsaw (traditional british style with a japanese 3 bevel pull cut blade) with a Lee Valley spend. The saw is under $20 - maybe that will be a good blade - bit more expensive than free though!

I think the blade tooth design will really determine if the multi-blade works or not. The easier the blade cuts, i.e. is set up right for the job at hand, the less effort on the poor old user - which will probably determine how many blades are practicable to use???

[Bodgy]

I've found a way to get the bow saw I want from Traditional Woodworking, in the US, despite their refusal to export. This comes with 4 blades and seems good value @ $US60.

I share Clint's postulation that its probably all down to the blades. Once this arrives I'll post results, although only for a single, concurrent blade - veneer sawing is a bit too ambitious for me. Incidentally all 4 blades seem to be of Kraut origin.

[Luddite]

Bodgy,

I also tried to export the traditional frame saw from the same supplier in the US, they wouldn't be in it for me either. How did you manage to short cut the system? Also, perhaps a few of us could pool our resources to get them back to Oz. Who is interested? I have long wanted a good frame saw / bow saw.

Just as a final note, I contacted Wilhem Putz (manufacturers of excellent bow saws) direct in Germany, who was particularly helpful, however the postage was about as much as the saw, so I changed my mind.

Anthony

[Bodgy]

Woody, we're in the same boat, I also tried the Krauts and the Poms, but freight killed it.

I have someone from the office in the US in a week or so, so simply shipped to our H/O.

I regularly visit the 'Great Satan' so next trip, you could ship your stuff to our office over there.

Nothing too heavy or expensive cause I ALWAYS get pulled over by the Oz custom Nazis. I must fit some profile or am on their database - I do travel a lot.

Wait till I get mine - they could be crap!

[Luddite]

Bodgy,

Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on that.

Yes, I will wait until you have yours....love to know what they are like, please let me know.

Anthony