Thread: Domino Jointer

Hello everyone,

I feel compelled to contribute to this thread as I believe there is some incorrect information in some of the previous replies. I do this for selfish reasons as a Festool dealer, and to be honest I am a bit sick of all the Festool bashing that goes on in this forum. I believe the purpose of these forums is to swap information and assist each other with knowledge and advice. And I thought on a brand/tool specific forum there would be more contributions about the experiences and application of such tools. And I think this is what martini was looking for. It started off well, then got a bit off topic.


What the other dealer may have reported regarding Festool having sold out a years supply of Dominos within Europe in the first month of release is essentially correct. I do not think the number of units was 11,000, but it is in the thousands. My understanding is Festool manufacture a large quantity of units prior to a launch, and the stock targeted for supply around the world was diverted to European sales. They have since been in catch-up mode to bring stock levels back up.

The Domino system may at first appear to be similar to a biscuit system, but is quite different. I relate it to a loose-tennoning system, as did someone else in this thread. The 'tennons' so to speak (dominos) come in five sizes: 5x19x30, 6x20x40, 8x22x40, 8x22x50, and 10x24x50mm. And of course multiple can be placed in a joint. Usefully you can place different size domino into same joint, say for a mitre joint to give maximum strength by using one longer and one shorter domino. As pointed out earlier in this thread, these are effectively 'short tennons'. Longer and deeper penetrating than biscuits, and more substantial, but not as long a tennon as you may produce using more conventional means. The dominos are not pressed like biscuits which are designed to swell in their slot. They are a solid machined piece of timber. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall the timber type, but it was pointed out to me at a dealer presentation that it is a different timber to biscuits. I can find out exactly what it is if anyone is interested. Also, the Domino machine can place the dominos equal distance into both pieces of the joint, or deeper into one side and less into the other depending on the joint requirements.

The Domino machine at first glance may look like a biscuiting machine but is rather more complex than that. Quite a bit of engineering is evident in the gear system to enable it to spin a cutter at 24,300 rpm whilst rapidly oscillating it left/right, also to enable the use of different size dominos. Although you do not need to specify the different width of the hole required to cater for the different size dominos (you just change cutters), one feature is the ability to increase the width of the hole from tight, loose, looser (my terminology) to aide alignment of the pieces. Joint strength remains essentially the same. It also has placement pins and an attachment to help you space the dominos out across the joint. Ideal for panel construction. You typically don't need to pencil mark up the work in order to place domino holes along the edges. At worst you only need to make one mark, and the rest are placed equal distance (user selectable) from the previous hole using the attached stop.

The Domino Assortment Systainer also discussed in thread retails at $330. This kit includes a Systainer, four domino cutters and 1,105 dominos. As a Systainer 2 retails for $96.91, and the four cutters $206.80, you could suggest the 1,105 dominos are essentially only $16.29. That would equate to about 1.4 cents a domino. To refill the Domino Assortment Systainer with more dominos by buying replenishment boxes works out to between $0.06 to $0.24 a piece depending on the size of domino you are using.

The domino machine in a Systainer retails at $1,226. To many this seems expensive, and people's opinions are of course determined by their personal situations, requirements and view on the suitability of the tool in question. But, referring back to my earlier comment on Festool bashing, Festool consistently produce very high quality and innovative product, and this R&D, materials, tool and system quality, comes at a price greater than that of average tools or poorly executed copies. But would you expect, innovation, quality, longevity, dealer training and experience, excellent warranty and service support, all to come with no discernable cost difference over other tools?

I am not sure if the direction this thread was taking is assisting martini get the answer he was looking for. I use the Domino system (currently using it to finish off an overdue kitchen project of mine) and think it is fantastic. But I would love to hear from a non-biased person or two who have purchased and used it and can give some feedback (see how they think of it after putting it to some use. I might canvass some of my Domino customers and see how they are going with the new System).


Now if anyone would like to get more information on the Domino, you can visit our store (Domino section) at:
http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3919_1.htm
Maybe this will help explain some aspects of the system.

Or ask for a Domino information pack at:
http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3799_1.htm
A pack will be posted out to you and includes an interactive DVD-ROM with lots of info and video, brochure, and a set of dominos, one of each size for you to look at.

Or ask me some questions about it. I am hardly an expert user of the Domino System just yet, and am simply an amateur woodworker, but I am happy to shed some light where I can. Yet again, I will endeavour to get some feedback from customers over the next little while.


A couple of other points....

The Mini-Systainer of blades also mentioned in this thread may not be accurately reviewed either. This set which retails for $249 comes with 30 jigsaw blades for cutting wood up to 85mm, 20 sabre saw blades, three sets of ear plugs, a pair of UVEX coated protection glasses, in a Mini-Systainer. Doing the numbers on that works out at $22.44 for the Mini-Systainer, UVEX glasses at approximately $46.00 (I got this figure of a safety equipment site), ear plugs say $1, the blades cost around $180. That works out at approximately $3.59 a blade (both jigsaw and sabre). Have you priced sabre saw blades lately, a set of three Bosch blades costs $21.00 So at say $120 for the sabre saw blades and $60 for the jigsaw blades, that work our at $6 per sabre saw blade and $2 per jigsaw blade.

The spiral bits mentioned at $82.50 currently being offered by Protool are by my recall a different design than those offered by Festool on eBay a few months back. The bits offered on eBay were being superseded by the current Protool (Prowood-ZOBO) set. I think they sold for around $20 on eBay at the time and were a good buy for those who picked them up.


Sorry to go on a bit, but I feel I needed to clarify a few points. Cheers.


Attached are a couple of images of the Domino in use to put an edging on a kitchen bench-top. I did go quite a bit over the top with the number of dominos and their close spacing...... you would not need that many, but I was experimenting (read 'enjoying myself').

Thanks for the information. I don't think that anyone disagrees on your points. We probably all want one, but it is simply perpercieved as being too bloody expensive, is all. Perception is reality.

Festool is aimed at pro's and amateurs who are willing to pay.
Price wise I think it is in the same league as the top end Lamello biscuit jointer.
Anyone who knows and uses Festool can only vouch for them, they are a bit like Mr U Beaut polishes, they have a gimmick, they work.
I went out a few years ago to buy a Metabo sander and came home with a Rotex 150, a purchase that I still do not regret.
The address on a previous post too in Bayswater is Gustec, Carbatecs old location.
Paul is a top bloke and a pleasure to deal with (even if he does seem a bit vague at times )

Gidday

Nowadays I truely try to avoid being involved in these kind a threads BUT feel strongly about this one and have been taken Hook Line and Sinker.

Before I start this is my opionion I own it But really am a bit Miffed at NT900's assertion that this Forum essentially Bash's Festool Products!!!

I need to state right here and now That I love Festool products and one day dream of owning some..................There is no doubt that Festool make excellent gear that any knowledgable Woodie or Craftsman would be happy to have Festool gear in their tool arsenel.

For me the general flavour of the Aussie woodwork forums take on Festool gear is that Its great stuff most of us would love to own BUT as stated is too expensive for the majority of Forum members.

This is simply a reflection of the general economic status of most forum members not having a spare grand to throw around to buy a 12 volt drill driver.............Domino system or sawguide

Please don't suggest that we are continually bagging Festool do a search and I'm sure you'll find that there's pleantly of balance.................most importantly most of the comments at very least FAIR!

I'm sure you'll agree that a FORUM that has a dedicated section for FEstooL products is with you rather than against you!!

REgards Lou

Thank you NT900, for your comprehensive reply. I can see the benfits of the machine from the information presented on the festool site but wanted a user's view. As you do use one, I wanted to know if you push it in like a buscuit joiner or whether it goes through its cycle automatically and cuts to the depth set on its dial? Also, as the cutter oscillates from side to side, is there any difficulty maintaining lateral position as it is held against the workpiece?

Martin.

Originally Posted by nt900

But would you expect, innovation, quality, longevity, dealer training and experience, excellent warranty and service support, all to come with no discernable cost difference over other tools?

I know this is cheeky, but "ever heard of Lee Valley tools?".

Otherwise, thanks for an excellent response. Most of us are challenged when it comes to affording the Festool range, but, when the opportunity presents itself, most of us are all over them like a chubby kid on a cupcake.

I was lucky enough to get a drill off ebay and find the other drills now sit in a cupboard. "Cry once" certainly applies to Festool, great product!

Hi there Lou - that makes two of us who prefer to not get drawn in, yet we did. Yes, some feedback is very positive, which is great. I won't knock that. And people should be able to support a product or state that they think they are expensive without undue pressure from others. I may be showing my sensitivities in this thread as I have been watching this forum for a few years and it seems to just skirt around the edges. Very rarely do we go in depth about a particular Festool product. I would love to see some in depth discussion about the OF1400 router and how both amateurs and professionals are finding it in use. Or some mini-review by owners which others can bounce questions off of.

Groggy - I love most of what Lee Valley has to offer. Have some of those items in my own workshop., I particularly like Veritas hand planes although I am not a big user.

Anyway, I have also gone off topic. Maybe I will start a few threads of my own to see if we can get a couple of Festool users to offer some more and in depth commentary.

As for the need I felt to reply to this thread, was really to correct what I thought were some inaccuracies. But back on topic. tow there has to be a Domino power user out there who can share their experiences with us.

Martinis - The question I can answer of martinis is "yes, you do need to plunge the machine in a similar way you plunge a biscuit machine". And, maintaining lateral position and accuracy is no issue for me. I find there is very little lateral kickback. Especially when plunging the machine vertically, I find I need to maintain little pressure on the machine to keep it under control. The one thing I am getting use to is placing dominos in mitre joints. But I think I have got the method sorted now. I probably should review the DVD-ROM a few more time and more closely observe the examples.

I'd like to make a couple of observations:

• People don't get wound up over junk products (usually). The fact that people care enough to post fore and agin is a good sign.
• I thank NT900 and others who defend and educate us about their products on the board - we usually learn something.
• Telling us we are 'biased' or 'bashing' a product is a good thing, if that is what is happening, as we can develop a group mentality at times; sometimes without realising it.
• We should be gracious to 'those in the know' who drop by with information for us - I think we generally are in this regard.

Personally, I like these threads. There are a number of questions I have had on the Domino that were cleared up here - especially the cost of the consumables. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt Festool to be more clear on that point.

Anthony

I don't think anyone bags Festool products. They have a great reputation and many happy users.

What, I think, we do bag are:

a. Festools Pricing in Australia.
b. Their apparent blatent disregard for Australian law regarding Retail Price Maintenance.

Whilst I know Festool tools are excellent, I can't quite see that they are more than twice as good as the Makita, Bosch, De Walt etc. equivalent, yet they come at over twice the cost. Still thats the way Festool run their Australian business which is their perogative. Punters can buy or not buy - which is our perogative.

The second issue I raise is more disturbing. Deriving income from a country yet, apparently, not complying with that country's laws is a serious matter.

Anthony - I look forward to your comments on this. Are you forbidden to discount? What penalties are prescribed for so doing? Is this part of your written contract or merely verbally delivered?

I am a Festool owner who cheerfully bashes Festool where warranted. Like already mentioned, this is largely confined to Australian prices and price policies as related to me personally by three festool dealers.

So, Anthony, some questions for you:
The consumables price mentions the cutters being sold with the dominos. How many domino joints can be cut before cutter replacement is required?

What improvements can be made to already excellent drill bits to warrant an $82.50 price tag?

The Festool forum on Yahoo has become cult-like, and criticism of the tools or the company gets howled down. I hope this one doesn't go the same way. I'm not offering criticism of the tools, just the company's apparent difficulties with those pesky Australian trading laws in place to protect me, the consumer.

Cheers,

Greg

I have just ordered the DVD from the idealtools site (thanks for the link Anthony) and look forward to seeing the Domino in action. Is it possible to get a live demo?

On a related theme, I have other festool products including the QF1400 router which I bought recently with the LR32 hole guide system as I had to drill about 2500 shelf holes! I have used other routers in the past and have to say that this router is a cut above the others. I also had to cut a large number of rebates as part of making these shelves. Setup and performance as well as smoothness of operation and dust collection are all excellent. Whether it is worth the price premium over other tools is an individual decision. It was worth it for me.

Martin.

For Bodgy and probably a few more out there who will be interested in an answer to his question.

Although I could avoid answering this question, take offence at being asked it in a public forum, take his question as a serious accusation and call my lawyer, or could suggest to you all that my business arrangements are none of yours or anyone else's business, I will answer it directly as it is a simple enough answer. But I do so on the basis that I do not want to drawn into further discussion on the topic as it rather upsets me, for reasons that should become clear by the end of this email. And I think my following statement is clear enough.

"My dealership is not involved in price fixing, nor is it encouraged to by any of our suppliers or other retailers." This applies to all the brands and products we sell.

The slightly longer answer - The prices Ideal Tools chooses to charge for any of the brands we sell are based on the what it costs us to run a business and make a necessary profit.

Our business model is pretty simple:

Support Australian woodworkers obtain some of the best tools around to enable them to be effective at their work, and for customer and ourselves mutually appreciate the transaction and experience.

This does not just mean sell high quality or expensive machines for maximum profit. It also means:

• Prompt, polite, fast service,
• 7 days a week operation and customer contact, late in the day phone and email for customers in WA,
• Pre and post purchase information and support,
• Rapid and free delivery to anywhere in Australia in nearly all cases. Perfect condition upon arrival.
  

As many people in business could tell you, this comes at quite a personal and financial cost. Our prices are based on these factors and the usual costs of running a business. Yet again, this applies to all the products and brands we sell.

Firstly, thanks to everyone in this thread for continuing rational discussion after my initial post. I was hesitant to reply as previously stated but this thread has drawn out some good discussion. Someone mentioned the Yahoo Groups Festool Forum. About people getting talked down/over if they criticise Festool. It is a good point. They have 'matured' to the point to now criticise this criticism in their own forum, which is good. I think the moderator has a pretty good philosophy on the forum, nothing should not be talked about, and nothing should be censored. But I believe he is willing to ban people who are get that passionate about it (either side of the debate) and become abusive. It think it is a very good forum with a generally positive attitude.


To answer some of Greg's questions - Or not quite answer as the case may be. I have not yet put any one cutter through that many domino to notice it begin to show sighs of wear. You may notice in the photo I attached, in the background I have some cleaning and lube products I am trying. With the Jarrah I have been using the domino cutters on I am getting pitch build up. Probably as much as I would get on a conventional router bit. I am trying to look after these bits better than I usually do. Time for me to break some bad habits. When I get some signs of wear or poor performance I will let the forum know. I have not yet investigated if there is a suitable resharpening process for these bits. I need to do that.

Regarding the Prowood drill bits, that is a good question which I cannot answer with direct product knowledge. I have not had the opportunity to try either the new or old sets. I am still using a set of Festool brad-point Novadrive bits which are about three or more years old. I have not had to sharpen them in that period and still get great results from them. Keep in mind this is not in a professional situation. But they are my main wood drills for when I need quality results. So no real answer to your question there. But I can say the Prowood hole saws (like a Forstner bit) are in my opinion fantastic! But I have not been able to afford to buy myself a set of these as yet. Like many of you, I will need to wait and save up for them.

Martin - As you are in Melbourne a Demo is easy. Give me a call on 1300 769 258 and I can bring a Domino around. If you would like and are not too busy, I can leave it with you for a few days and you can report back to the forum your experience with it.