Thread: The tamed skew

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Helllooo Skew, long time no see!

I see that you have not seen that a couple of posts ago I said that
a) [...]

Oh, I saw. But I couldn't resist a poke.

I guess my point - if I even have one, that is - is that in the hands of a beginner such tools may be more versatile than most others. However in the hands of an experienced user other tools will give superior results.

But if the beginner is using this "do-a-bit-of-everything" tool, they're never going to master the other tools... and hence are self-limiting the quality of their work.

Originally Posted by tea lady

Not that I'm a show off but...... here is a couple of muck around things in Radiatta pine.

Nicely done, AM! (Oh... and there's only one T in Radiata, Ttea Lady!. )

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

Nicely done, AM! (Oh... and there's only one T in Radiata, Ttea Lady!. )

Its only cos I'm a vvery generous personn!

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

I find difficult to visualize how you get a cutting edge out of the square side.

There is the misconception

My bedan is the Sorby 3/8 or nom 10mm size. This one is not made of square stock but looking from the end it is a trapezoidal shape.

The top side is a bit over 9mm and the bottom a bit over 7 mm so the sides each slope inwards about 1mm which would make the sides angled at about 80 degrees relative to the top. The angle sharpened is at 50 degrees to the top of the bedan.


To use on spindle work you invert the tool so that the top side is in fact the bevel rubbing against the wood. You push it in similar to a parting tool for rapid removal of waste and then you can do a peeling cut to the left or right without altering the angle of the tool.

For hollowing a box or a bowl you hold the tool similar to a scraper which means you will cut along the sides as well as the edge at the same time similar to a scraper adapted for side scraping.

For roughing out a bowl shape to round I hold it similar to a scraper.

Today I used two identical wet rounds to rough turn into bowl shapes. I used a roughing bowl gouge on one and the bedan on the other. The bedan was twice as fast.

Of course the finish is not as good as a skew or a gouge and I normally finish with those tools but for quickly getting it to shape it is equivalent to my spindle roughing gouge and no catches.


Peter.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

There is the misconception

My bedan is the Sorby 3/8 or nom 10mm size. This one is not made of square stock but looking from the end it is a trapezoidal shape.

The top side is a bit over 9mm and the bottom a bit over 7 mm so the sides each slope inwards about 1mm which would make the sides angled at about 80 degrees relative to the top. The angle sharpened is at 50 degrees to the top of the bedan.


To use on spindle work you invert the tool so that the top side is in fact the bevel rubbing against the wood. You push it in similar to a parting tool for rapid removal of waste and then you can do a peeling cut to the left or right without altering the angle of the tool.

For hollowing a box or a bowl you hold the tool similar to a scraper which means you will cut along the sides as well as the edge at the same time similar to a scraper adapted for side scraping. Bevel up or down?

For roughing out a bowl shape to round I hold it similar to a scraper. bevel up or down?



Peter.

Still owuld love to see you using it!

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

Oh, I saw. But I couldn't resist a poke.

I guess my point - if I even have one, that is - is that in the hands of a beginner such tools may be more versatile than most others. However in the hands of an experienced user other tools will give superior results.

But if the beginner is using this "do-a-bit-of-everything" tool, they're never going to master the other tools... and hence are self-limiting the quality of their work.



Nicely done, AM! (Oh... and there's only one T in Radiata, Ttea Lady!. )

Totally agree with what you say, I think I said exactly the same thing (maybe less clearly! ) The only difference, I believe, is a value judgement about the net benefit of doing a bit of everything easily and cheaply after taking away the cost of the inferior quality. For the experienced person like you the cost overcomes the benefit, for a beginner hobbyist IMHO the benefit could be substantial until he/she decides where to go from there. I do not think that using this tool would engender bad habits that would mar future development.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

There is the misconception

My bedan is the Sorby 3/8 or nom 10mm size. This one is not made of square stock but looking from the end it is a trapezoidal shape.

The top side is a bit over 9mm and the bottom a bit over 7 mm so the sides each slope inwards about 1mm which would make the sides angled at about 80 degrees relative to the top. The angle sharpened is at 50 degrees to the top of the bedan.

...

Peter.

Yes, Peter, that explaines it. As you say, you use the top as a 50 degree cutter/scraper and the side as an 80 degrees scraper. The action is indeed similar but not the same thing as cutting with a 44 degree blade. I am sure you would find a benefit using the tool exactly as you use the bedan and exploring its effectivenes for rolling cuts.

Originally Posted by tea lady

Not that I'm a show off but...... here is a couple of muck around things in Radiatta pine. Done with a spindle gouge. I took your "design" above and did it more curvy, as a spindle gouge allows you too. Notice not tear out. No chipping on the sharp edges. The "v" cut one is mainly with a detail gouge. It could herald the start of my "electrical insulator" phase. (Striaght off the tool, as they say! No sanding done. )

I'm not suggesting that your tool is not useful. Just that it can't match a spindle gouge or detail gouge in the hands of a relative beginner doing finials.

Thinking about it, I reackon monting one stughtly skewd on teh post could really work doing endgrain hollowing. Have to dash now, could do a thumb nail sketch if you want.

Nice work, TL. As it has been pointed out, this is a bit of a sidetrack, but I think our little bit of repartee does add a bit of useful context.

We both agree that the wider angle of the insert is not suitable for soft wood and can only produce larger V cuts than those possible with a more acute blade.

We both can produce detailed work in soft wood with traditional tools, the difference being a matter of individual skill. Because soft wood produces inferior results, though, neither of us would really be happy using it for our work.

The point still unproven is your claim that a traditional tool would produce a cleaner cut at the bottom of a 46 degrees V cut in a decent hard timber. Can't imagine how much cleaner than those I have documented photographically one can go, but I am eager to see it.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

I do not think that using this tool would engender bad habits that would mar future development.

I'm not sure of this. It appears that the ool is used differantly to "traditional" tools. So the beginner would not be getting skills that would hepl them use proper tools.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

We both agree that the wider angle of the insert is not suitable for soft wood and can only produce larger V cuts than those possible with a more acute blade.

We both can produce detailed work in soft wood with traditional tools, the difference being a matter of individual skill. Because soft wood produces inferior results, though, neither of us would really be happy using it for our work.

The point still unproven is your claim that a traditional tool would produce a cleaner cut at the bottom of a 46 degrees V cut in a decent hard timber. Can't imagine how much cleaner than those I have documented photographically one can go, but I am eager to see it.

Since beginners would prolly be using radiata pine for their first pieces, perhaps the tool should at least be capable of doing a good job on it?

You want harder wood? OK! Will dig something out tomorrow. Is cranky red gum OK? Or do you want some desert timber?

Originally Posted by tea lady

I'm not sure of this. It appears that the ool is used differantly to "traditional" tools. So the beginner would not be getting skills that would hepl them use proper tools.

Yep, that's what I am saying. No habits means no bad habits.

Since beginners would prolly be using radiata pine for their first pieces, perhaps the tool should at least be capable of doing a good job on it?
Now you are really scraping the barrel of the argument...

You want harder wood? OK! Will dig something out tomorrow. Is cranky red gum OK? Or do you want some desert timber?

Straight grained desert timber would serve you best... but I want a 30x photo of the V cut for evidence, otherwise I won't believe you. Seriously, though, you surely have better things to do with your life ... I would feel bad if you feel obliged.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Straight grained desert timber would serve you best... but I want a 30x photo of the V cut for evidence, otherwise I won't believe you. Seriously, though, you surely have better things to do with your life ... I would feel bad if you feel obliged.

Frank I think you owe Tea Lady an apology.

Every new turner ususally only has acces to radiata pine they get from their local hardware store or scraps from building projects, they do not have ready acces to straight grained desert timbers.
So maybe you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Ditto to you also, Seriously, though, you surely have better things to do with your life you have strung this argument out quite a bit to prove very little other than that newbies should learn the basic skills to use the proper tools to do woodturning.
Once this has been achieved then look at the gimmicks and see if they do what they want them to do.

When I started turning I was told to keep practising on radiata pine till I got my technique right, once you learn to turn pine the rest is easy. I still tell all newbies to do this.

All turners should learn to turn with conventional tools , then learn to turn good, then they will learn how to turn fast.

Once they get through these three steps they realise they dont need gimiky tools.

Originally Posted by Jim Carroll

All turners should learn to turn with conventional tools , then learn to turn good, then they will learn how to turn fast.

Once they get through these three steps they realise they dont need gimiky tools.

Geez, Jim, I'm not disagreeing with you but you're taking all the fun out of retail therapy!

Originally Posted by jefferson

Geez, Jim, I'm not disagreeing with you but you're taking all the fun out of retail therapy!

Not true in my case Jeff and I'm sure it's not in most others. How many of us have turning tools we don't use?
Another Jim

Originally Posted by Jim Carroll

Frank I think you owe Tea Lady an apology.

No offense was meant, but I am happy to apologise if one was taken.

I accept your point about the role of pine in a traditional teaching paradigm. I hope you accept my point that it would have no role in my alternative paradigm. My curt remark did not make this sufficiently clear, for which I apologise.

You have made a value judgment that the traditional way is the right way. I respect that and accept that it is the right way to become a professional turner, who might have to plod through pine to make a living. I only ask you to respect a hobbyist's freedom to try a different way. I hope you accept that dismissing my tool as "gimmicky" does not provide a useful assessment of its strengths and weaknesses that would help such a hobbyist choose wisely.

I make no apology for expressing sincerely my concern that I could have "strung this argument out quite a bit", to use your words, and made Tea Lady feel obliged to waste her time for what was, in essence, a side issue detracting from the main argument.

I am much indebted to for his considered analysis of my argument. I would be equally indebted to you (and Tea Lady and anybody else) for providing useful objective evaluations of the features of the tool.

The potential beneficiaries of my argument are mainly people who do not have yet the expertise to contribute to it, so I am in the unfortunate position of having to defend it almost by myself. Please make allowances for this. I hope you acknowledge that I am a rational person and readily admit making a mistake when I have evidence of it.

I can resist no longer.

I am feeling a bit sorry for you Frank; I'm sure you don't know which way to duck as you are copping it from all directions. I appreciate what you have written (although I have to concentrate too hard to understand it all) and what you are trying to do with this tool.

The older I get, the more I see in the woodturning world, the more I teach woodturning the more I realise that there are some that just don't get it, (Jim and will remember one particular example of this in Horsham this year; not a forumite) especially when it comes to the skew chisel. There are lots of things in this world I don't get; it's a matter of horses for courses or different strokes... but the fact is there are a lot of woodturners who find good tool technique difficult.

So, I definitely do not agree that all newbies should be expected to master the skew through hours of practise on pine. This would simply put some off the enjoyment they may otherwise get from woodturning. If that is what you want to do then so be it; go for it. However, I prefer the golf card approach. The only thing most are interested in when they see the golf score card is the final score and not how it was achieved. Sure there are some who want to swing the club correctly but there are lots who simply want to get the lowest score possible no matter how it is achieved. In the woodturning world there are lots who simply don't spend hours each week on the lathe, but will perhaps do a couple of hours on the weekend. They do not have the interest in achieving perfect technique but more want to produce something fairly quickly that looks pretty good. For quite a few woodturners they simply do not want to spend hours trying to master a tool technique and I would not push the point, especially if it is obvious woodturning is something that doesn't come naturally to them.

From what I have read your tool is catering for this type of turner and I see nothing wrong with this. I like to encourage turning safely and enjoyably. A focus on product over process is not such a bad thing sometimes, so long as safety is taken care of. Yes, I agree traditional techniques are important and have withstood the test of time because they are efficient and produce good results, but let's not ignore those who struggle with these techniques but still want to enjoy woodturning.

I do a lot of spindle work especially with the recorders I make and use a skew in a traditional way seldom to make them. I can achieve better results using other means. Trying to roll a bead 1.2mm wide with a skew chisel ain't fun.

Is your tool a gimmick? I don't know so I would like to have a go with one to broaden my experiences and have a better understanding of what you are trying to do. I will make my judgement after I've taken it for a good spin. I have always thought the Sorby spindle master was a good tool because it provided an alternative to the skew and spindle gouges.

I will now run for cover and search for the flack jacket.