Thread: Tormek sharpening machine

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

As usual you are getting more bad advice than good on this thread.

That's simply not correct

+1

As usual???

This reminds me of a lecturer who I had many years ago (like 45yrs ago ) who would say, "there is a right and a wrong way to do things, and then there is my way. Do it my way if you want to pass this subject". He and we were never confused that his way was necessarily the 'right way'. I would struggle to pass that subject now, however, that aphorism remained with me and served me well throughout my career. The opinions and preferences of an expert are to be highly valued, but not to be taken as 'the right' and only way to do things.

Neil,

there are at least 3 "expert" turners/sharpeners on this forum that are against the Tormek system. The same 3 give lessons to all and sundry (though none claim to give Master-level tutoring. Interesting isn't it?)

It makes me wonder. We have at least 3 so-called experts telling their students that the Tormek system is not the way to go. Isn't that the point you were trying to make? Not listening 100% to "experts" all of the time?

I would have thought it appropriate for those offering PAID lessons to students give ALL of the alternatives, not just one or two.

From memory, all 3 "experts" had or have a Tormek but don't use it anymore. I'm still not convinced with the WHY.

One didn't take his Tormek to a demo. Reason for the over-sight unknown. Lost his Tormek grinds and didn't go back.

One bought a Sheppach, then a Tormek and got rid of both. Reasons for sales unclear when you put the student first. Still uses the Tormek jigs though.

The other one still owns a Tormek but doesn't use it. Why? Speed? Cost?

As far as I can tell, steel continues to cost more than stone. And I think it appropriate that so-called experts need to back their views with some solid reasoning - more so than the likes of me. Leaving your Tormek at home is not a good reason to my mind.

This thread has certainly caused some grief - I don't want anymore PMs from anyone with an anti-Tormek viewpoint. Anyone with the cash should not be discouraged from buying a Tormek or a Sheppach (and the jigs).

I refute remarks that buying a wet stone grinder won't make you a better turner. Your tools will be sharper and that takes one common problem out of the equation.

Fit for purpose?

My Tormek saves me $30 each time I resharpen my planer blades. No idea of the savings for sharpening knives etc but probably $5 a pop. And I don't waste steel when I sharpen anything. And my turning tools are band-aid sharp straight off the grinder.

Time or money poor? Trying to learn how to paddle with diamond sticks? Trying to learn how to sharpen free-hand on a spark grinder? Good luck and the best be with you. Just don't try to convince me and all the other novices out there that wet stone grinders are not the way to go.

I again offer the challenge to those that believe they can sharpen mini tools on a spark grinder. I'll pay the cost of the steel and the initial postage. The deal is simply enough - retractions mandatory on both sides.

The other one still owns a Tormek but doesn't use it. Why? Speed? Cost?

Are you referring to me Jeff?

Originally Posted by

Are you referring to me Jeff?

If he is, and you have a Tormek not being used - can I have first dibs?

What a thread.

Originally Posted by

Are you referring to me Jeff?

Negative.

You are the only bloke I know turning lamp posts, so you work out your own sharpening rules!

Originally Posted by jefferson

Just don't try to convince me and all the other novices out there that wet stone grinders are not the way to go.

Neither should novices be railroaded into believing that the Tormek is the only way to go. There are horses for courses and grinders for each purpose.

Incidently I have a Seppach wet grinder and I feel that the " T " costing at least $ 600 more did not give me any extra benefits, so I believe that owning the " T " is only snob value.

Maybe different for a professional turner that needs to keep the machine running all day and every day but for the novice turners that is not necessary.

Peter.

I had a Sheppack, then upgraded to a Tormek, for me there was a HUGE difference.

Is it the perfect answer for sharpening, short answer no, but it is a dam good tool that wirks well for me. After watching on his fancy new sharpening wheel thingy, can't remember the name, I am considering getting one but even so I would still hang onto the Tormek.

I've given up watching the cricket and tennis just to follow
this thread.

More views than you would get from the Eiffel Tower.

Can't wait to see the final result where everyone agrees
to disagree, all hold hands, take a Bex and have a lie down.

Allan

Well, this has been entertaining. We all agree that if you don't have sharp tools, you have a lot of problems turning. The degree of sharpness can vary a lot depending on what you use to sharpen with. Of course, if you give the same tool to two different turners, sharpened the same way, the same wood, you can and will get different results. All of God's children are different, and some of us are more different than the others.

I was talking to Mike Mahoney about tool edges. He free hand sharpens, and I was asking him about how he liked the 80 grit D Way CBN wheels. He said he preferred the coarser one. His preference is for a more serrated edge for finish cuts as it works better for him. I believe he prefers a 60 grit ALO (aluminum oxide) wheel. Well, that set me to scratching my bald head trying to figure out that one. I can't argue with his experience, and he has turned way more than I have. I experimented with my gouges on the coarse wheel, and couldn't really tell a difference between the 80 and 180 grit cutting edges.

Of course, not long after that, a demonstrator commented about how he was at a Symposium turning and didn't have a grinder. He used some one else's and things were normal. A Tormek rep took his gouge and sharpened it, and he commented that the edge held a lot longer than the one from the sparky wheel. The Tormek theory is that the finer edge last longer because there are fewer teeth to wear off/down. Well, I had to ponder that.

I have an old Tormek, 10 plus years, and most of the time I don't use it. Mostly because it had the old grey wheel which was about as hard as balsa wood. I got one of the new black wheels (satisfying my curiosity can be expensive), and tried it out again. I do use a platform for free hand sharpening, so that is how I did one of my gouges on the Tormek. I couldn't really tell any difference in edge durability or that it cut any better or cleaner. I have a host of chisels, mostly Thompson, but several others in there as well, that curiosity thing again, and switch back and forth a lot. I also turn a lot of different woods. If I was to use the same chisel on the same wood for a month or so, and then switch, I might be sensitive enough to feel differences in how the tools perform. Also, my scrapers get used more than my gouges in bowl turning as I do all my roughing with the scrapers.

What does it all mean? Well, all methods work, and what works best is more due to our idiot- syncracies than to any 'real' measurable differences.

robo hippy

Written before RH posted; in reply to Jeff specifically ...

To judge the worth of a tool by who uses it is on par with judging the quality of a make of car by who drives it. Lots of bogans in Commodores out my way but that's not what puts me off Commodores.

Why not instead take a look at how high quality turnings have been produced over the years - the ones that won prizes, were acquired by galleries and museums and were curated for publications. How many were done by Tormek users or could only have been done by them?

It's the output that matters. You can get tools sharp enough without a wet wheel. At the point where someone is able to shape wood without having to sand it, then it's worth their while to refine the tool edge (ditto for finishing cuts). And if they're not honing the milling marks out of their gouge flutes they're p*ssing in the wind with or without a wetgrinder.

As for the proposition that students shouldn't be taught to sharpen without access to a Tormek, that's on par with saying they shouldn't be taught deep hollowing without having access to all of the hollowing rigs and tools on the market. Plain tosh.

PS I've had no trouble getting a good-enough edge on mini-tools with a fine Alox wheel. The diamond wheel will do better than serviceable.

Originally Posted by jefferson

Neil,

Isn't that the point you were trying to make? Not listening 100% to "experts" all of the time?

Jeff - I think what I was trying to say was, "the opinions and preferences of an expert are to be highly valued, but not to be taken as 'the right' and only way to do things."

• I try to listen carefully to everything that the experts have to say
• I try to value all of their hard won knowledge and opinions
• Invaluable when the experts agree
• But experts can and do disagree
• That doesn't make some right and others wrong.
• They just have different experiences and personal preferences because there is not only one way to do things
• Safety is another matter

Originally Posted by jefferson

I again offer the challenge to those that believe they can sharpen mini tools on a spark grinder. I'll pay the cost of the steel and the initial postage. The deal is simply enough - retractions mandatory on both sides.

What length is the flute on your smallest detail gouge?

Drop in anytime Jeff when you're in the big smoke.

Easier to show than to describe.

Then you too can make your own mind up.

The comments that I made seem to be getting further and further out of context.
People that know me well know I don't do "subtle", I will try a different tact.
I have never told a beginner that they must have a Tormek. I always tell them to buy some jigs and the best grinder they can afford. I do tell them in my opinion the Tormek is the best although dearest system.
I do suggest that they buy the Tormek jigs, as these have always been easy and safe to use, regardless of the type of grinder. (If they can afford them)
Since the introduction of the tool setter they are probably even easier to use. It takes me a very short time to teach a raw beginner how to sharpen their tools. Their tools quickly become sharp, with usable repeatable angles.
I feel that it is important for a beginner's tools to cut and react the same every time they present them to the wood. This makes them easier to teach and their confidence grows quickly.
I have proven this method works by setting up Tormek jigs on spark grinders at my local Northern Woodturners club.
I'm going to use Ern as an example here, for no other reason than he made it easy for me to access his website. (No offence intended Ern)
From where I'm standing "all" of the pieces on his site can be made with basic skills and a good set of well sharpened tools.
Having said that I am not putting the work down. There is nothing wrong with the work, it "all" looks well turned and finished. This work will probably sell much better than mine. It's just like the work I was making when I first started.
What I call "bad advice" is when somebody that makes basic pieces (normal) like Ern's, gives advice that limits a beginners possibilities. The advise is even worse if they couldn't get their Tormek to sharpen properly and didn't seek help.
Why tell a beginner that a Tormek is not a necessary item for them or even worse, that it won't do the job. If they can afford it let them by it. Owning a Tormek will only make their introduction to woodturning easier. It could possibly be the only grinder they ever need to buy.
I try to assume that the beginner asking for advice might be the next Hans Weisflogg of the turning world (Hans owns a Tormek). My advice is given based on that assumption.
I prefer to make pieces that fit in the gap between difficult and impossible. (Just the way my brain was wired). To do this everything matters, especially the tools and the sharpening.
There are a few people that try to make my pieces, they all found the process easier when they puchased a Tormek.
I have tried all sorts of grinders and nothing sharpens my tools as well as a Tormek. A lot of my tools are less than 1 mm wide, they are difficult enough to sharpen on a Tormek. Sharpening them on a spark grinder is down right dangerouse and they always burn.
I also agree that not everybody needs a Tormek and there are some sharpening jobs they simply won't do.
At the Turnarounds that I attend I spend most of my time showing how to sharpen tools. If the Tormek is considered such a bad investment, why do some of the so called experts get me to sharpen their tools on mine?
I hope this makes my opinion clearer.

Originally Posted by KenW

...
People that know me well know I don't do "subtle", I will try a different tact...

Didn't know you even knew how to spell subturtle and as for tact eh?