Thread: Some thoughts on combining woods for hard bodies..

Originally Posted by WayneW

Gday Guys,

woodturner777,

Hi Bob, nothing new here really, it's just how things work, it's a very interesting subject.

The main thing i see is there are lots of people trying to become luthiers in the true sense but then you read all sorts of things where they want to be luthiers with one comment but then they totally take the craft away in the next comment & say the timber doesn't matter?.
There is so much garbage on the internet that it defies belief & people who really want to learn don't know what to believe, most comments are made through hear say not actual test results.
Years ago you could purchase books that were full of valuable information & worth every penny, now days most of the books have very little or no real information on the true craft & are more about just assembly etc, i call them quick money spinner books & there not written by true craftsman but people wanting to make a quick buck.

Hi Wayne,

I think there are alot of very good books that have appeared in recent years which go heavily into the theory behind what controls the sound of a guitar. I think the books have gone from being simple how to manuals to texts that cover more of the theory behind the guitar as well as delving into off beat approaches to guitar design (use of carbon fibre in bracing etc). Ervin Symogi has just released a two part text on voicing and building the responsive guitar as well as a DVD. Ervin's writing style is unique in that he doesnt provide easy formulas and dimensions for making a guitar...he leaves you with a starting point and where you go from there is up to you. The GAL Big Red Book series are another valuable source of information on building and designing guitars...I reccomend them to any serious luthier.

The internet......it's a well known fact that its 90% , 5% spam and the remaining 5%...well theres usually something useful if you look hard enough and know exactly what your looking for. You will always get a few walleys on any forum but you also get the forum members who freely share their knowledge to others and they include many well known luthiers held in high regard (Ervin S posts on at least one Australian forum).

What defines a "true luthier"? This is a question that always generates much debate on luthier forums...and usually ends up in more than one forum member going off in a huff. Me..I prefer to call myself a maker of guitar shaped objects. Im a late starter and can never hope to gain the knowledge and experience equal to someone who's been making guitars for a living all their life. I build purely for pleasure and have no interest in making money out of buidling.

Im not able to play the soundclips at present as Im on a satellite comm system at present and bandwidth is limited. Ill check them out when I get home from work next week.

Cheers Martin

Gday Guys,

old_picker;

Using what timber is available to us is part of the game, but apples ain't apples when it comes to the differences once the completed instrument is played.
I found this, hope it adds a bit of weight to what i have been trying to say.
Tone Tips: Wood Resonance?The Secret to Superlative Tone

Bob, bugger restacking it.
Yeah i have sorted through many cu/mtrs of timber & have had to restack it all
I think the best thing to do is listen to the pro's like gibson etc, like the link above & if that doesn't convince people, then maybe they should make furniture?.

With all this talk about timber, you may have to start sending a commission on for the sales increases hahaha!


Peter, i will set up some tests as promised before & post some results that i think you may be interested in.

Ball Peen
The link i posted may help as well, if the instruments only come to life with a pre amp then a little more study is usually in order. Don't take this the wrong way as i am sure you do fine work.
At a guess i would say that your timber may not be working in harmony & resonance is not correct.
Or the pre amp may be filtering out or enhancing the harmonics--- frequencies that are either lacking or to pronounced making the instrument less lively.
A guess of course without looking at anything.
Basses require very different characteristics than guitars as far as timber is concerned, the frequencies of your basses are a good starting point to look at.


kiwigeo

What defines a true Luthier, i guess at the end of the day it's like most things, striving to be the best & make the best.
When a "professional player" says that's better than my old Tele or my Les Paul won't do that or that sustain is awsome & is the best i've played, i guess then we can start to think were getting there & maybe were starting to be a Luthier.
I wouldn't worry about being a late starter, it's up to the individual & how they percieve things to be that will make truly great instruments.
The most important thing is to enjoy what your doing, if your not finding pleasure in what you do then move on to something that you find pleasure in, i'm sure you'll enjoy building Guitars.


One thing not to forget for anyone building guitars.
Gibson etc may turn out a couple of good guitars for the general public but the best is always shelved for the big pocket players to sort through & choose what they require.

This is where we can build a quality not quantity better than the best of the big named mass produced guitars. We can select what we require for each & every one where they will basically make guitars out of anything that is at hand & run it through there CNC money makers.
We build crafted guitars, not them.


Cheers
WayneW

Thanks for the links Wayne, now in my saved folders.
As I keep saying wood makes a great deal of difference even in an electric guitar.
But as Peter says the neck wood is very important, I had a long phone conversation with Peter yesterday and what he said about the neck makes great sense.
So have a great body & neck wood, good pick ups, amp,Etc and you will have a great guitar.
Regards,Bob

Work ramping up here so no time for a detailed response. Comments:

1. I do listen to the famous makers but I dont always agree with them. Eg. Ervin Somogyis new books contain some great stuff but I dont agree 100% with sonme of his analogies when discussing the mechanics of the acoustic guitar.

2. Again I reiterate that Im not saying that wood in a soilid body doesnt vibrate and feedback into the strings. I just dont believe that it's the dominant factor influencing the sound of the instrument. You could have a resonant piece of wood but if the pickup/bridge/amp/speakers are sub standard then the instrument will sound like %%%.

Okay back to work....if I dont get paid then therell be NO building going on in my workshop

Cheers Martin

G'Day Martin,
I know what it is like on them oil rigs did it myself many, many, years ago in the North sea, keeps you busy and on your toes but great money.
As for your comments that you listen to the famous makers but dont always agree with them, that I do know from comments you have posted.
but that is what it is all about, but then I think to myself the guys that have been building guitars most of there lives must know what they are doing.
And now the young up and coming luthiers of today are changing the boundarys and questioning the ways of old, thats good we will learn more and who knows the best guitar is yet to be built.
Cheers,Bob

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Work ramping up here so no time for a detailed response. Comments:

1. I do listen to the famous makers but I dont always agree with them. Eg. Ervin Somogyis new books contain some great stuff but I dont agree 100% with sonme of his analogies when discussing the mechanics of the acoustic guitar.

2. Again I reiterate that Im not saying that wood in a soilid body doesnt vibrate and feedback into the strings. I just dont believe that it's the dominant factor influencing the sound of the instrument. You could have a resonant piece of wood but if the pickup/bridge/amp/speakers are sub standard then the instrument will sound like %%%.

Okay back to work....if I dont get paid then therell be NO building going on in my workshop

Cheers Martin

Somewhere in this thread a strawman has been set up that says "if you think the electrics are more important, you care nothing for workmanship or tone woods". No one has even mentioned strings yet.

The best test of any solid body instrument is to play it acoustically. If you want others to hear it we get into the craft of amplification. With piezos, a quality pre amp as close as possible to the piezos, is essential.

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

Somewhere in this thread a strawman has been set up that says "if you think the electrics are more important, you care nothing for workmanship or tone woods". No one has even mentioned strings yet.

The best test of any solid body instrument is to play it acoustically. If you want others to hear it we get into the craft of amplification. With piezos, a quality pre amp as close as possible to the piezos, is essential.

mmm that is certainly not the case with my work
craftsmanship is paramount - a major part of the craft of creating electric guitar tone and a high level of playability is a properly built instrument - fancy timbers are more of an aesthetic than functional consideration

Ray, yes craftsmanship is very importent.
But I have lost count how many times that I have put a billet or drop top or acoustic guitar set, in front of a customer with nice light figure and said do you want to buy this or this and showed them some thing mind blowing timber with top of the range figure, they always buy the mind blowing figure.
I have had a few conversations with the head timber buyer for Taylor guitars and his comment to me was the customers buys with there eyes first, in other words if it looks beautiful with high figured wood that will sell first, sure you can build a great guitar with crap wood but will it sell. If you build a great guitar with the best figured wood it sells itself.
Regards,Bob

Originally Posted by old_picker

mmm that is certainly not the case with my work
craftsmanship is paramount - a major part of the craft of creating electric guitar tone and a high level of playability is a properly built instrument - fancy timbers are more of an aesthetic than functional consideration

aha!
now we are getting somewhere - old growth well figured timber is more a selling point than a contributing factor to tone - an aesthetic consideration

perhaps this is getting off topic a bit - op's original post was more about different hardwoods as in species rather than high figure against plain i think -

is the OP is posting new soundclips soon??

Originally Posted by woodturner777

sure you can build a great guitar with crap wood but will it sell.

Unfortunately in this country you can sell anything if you a.) spend enough on advertising and b). the customer thinks a low price alone constitutes a bargain.

I recall cringing at a window display of "Bob The Builder" musical instruments including a guitar in a music shop in New Zealand a few months ago....the things are absolute rubbish but they sell because they look pretty.

Gday Guy's,

Finally have the time to sit down & produce more dribble haha!

I have read through the replies since i last raved on & one thing we can all agree on is that we agree to disagree but that's what makes us individuals.

At the end of the day we have all sorts of buyers from true collectors that sit the guitars in display cabinets never to play a note to the serious muso's not forgetting the average joe blow who just likes the look of something.

To me it's the sound quality that counts, in saying this the asthetics & craftmanship are paramount as well but it's the sound that determines who's guitars are good & not so good.

It's the same as having a great looking car, not much good if it won't pull the skin off custard, i would rather have both worlds, something that looks & operates great.

Like kiwigeo said he does look & listen to the Pro's but he has his own thought's on things, this is what is needed.
When the first electric guitars came out namely Fender & Gibson, there was nothing else to compare them with only each other & there were obvious differences in the brands.
Now without effects they sounded pretty ordinary & still do, did they get them right, well that's a matter of personal opinion.
I for one think that at the time they were pretty average without electronic effects making them sound great in individuals hands.

I believe they found a new market for something different & that was it, made it as cheap as they could with maximised profit margins regardless of sound quality without effects.

I don't like guitars that have no Balls & need amplifier effects to get good sound, if a Guitar has a good natural Timbre then it will sound great when amplified.

Over the years i have found that you can easily test the quality of sound & how much grunt the guitars have by dropping the Mid Range right out of the Amplifier, turn it to Zero & see what sound you get.
If the Timber itself is DEAD it will sound hollow & will not retain the true harmonics of a good instrument without the amplifier, in other words the guitar needs help from the amp--a bad start in any language & obviously poor quality materials used.
The Low & High Range are self explanitory, with the Mid Range turned off if you have a guitar with a full bodied natural mid range Timbre the Harmonics won't sound Hollow, in fact they will still sound great with all the mid range on the amp turned off.

The mid range test will show an ordinary guitar from the instrument grade guitars.

I have posted a sound clip once again of the same three Guitars as before this time through the amp just playing or should i say fumbling a simple Scale twice through.
As before the first two are the guitars i build & the third one is an expensive well know guitar as a comparison, one of the brands mentioned above & old--regarded as very good, well to some?.
They are all fitted with exactly the same pickups etc etc with all the tone controls on the guitars set the same--with a multimeter.
They have the same strings of the same age fitted also.
The Mid range on the Amp is set to Zero the High & Low Range are on 5 on ALL tests.

There is nothing changed at all between tests just the different guitars.
As you will hear the third Guitar--well known, has a hollow sound from the amplifier. Not a good start for any instrument of any quality.
It will be interesting to see the comments

WayneW
Linguist Guitars