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Thread: which bowl gouge.?
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12th February 2014, 08:43 PM #16SENIOR MEMBER
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[QUOTE=Paul39;1746724.
I think there is more difference in how the tool is sharpened and how it is handled than in the brand name
[/QUOTE]
As much as it pains me to do so Paul.
I have agree with that.
Nothing personal, just prefer to have a good debate
A couple of observations regarding the different sizes.
If you have the horsepower to drive the wood, a 20 mm bowl gouge will remove large quantities of material quickly.
You can also reach further over the tool rest without the tool flexing.
A longer heavier handle helps here.
A 10mm gouge will remove smaller quantities of material and in most cases will leave a cleaner cut.
It will also flex and bounce more than a larger diameter tool when used with the same amount of overhang from the tool rest.
Most experienced bowl turners could take any brand of bowl gouge sharpen it, and make it perform well.
Having said that most of us have a favourite tool for different cuts.
My go-to bowl gouge for difficult timbers is always my 13mm Glaser gouge (mild fingernail grind) on the inside.
This tool just seems to make an unsupported entry into the timber better than any other tool I own.
On the outside shape, a 10mm version of the same (square across grind, like a roughing gouge) is my tool of choice.
Bottom line is I need to remove unwanted timber quickly and make my finish cuts as clean as possible.
As long as the shape is good I'm not worried about any small ridges off the tool.
When sanding, these little ridges will soon disappear.
However I always try to remove any torn grain as this takes heaps of sanding to remove.
Never met a turner that likes spending more time sanding than turning.
My 2 bobs worth.
Cheers
TimSome days I turns thisaway, somedays I turns thataway and other days I don't give a stuff so I don't turn at all.
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12th February 2014, 11:04 PM #17
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13th February 2014, 03:45 AM #18GOLD MEMBER
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13th February 2014, 10:05 AM #19SENIOR MEMBER
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Some days I turns thisaway, somedays I turns thataway and other days I don't give a stuff so I don't turn at all.
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13th February 2014, 12:01 PM #20
First, I need to work out whether this is a serious question. Given it is, I think there wouldn't be many that would need such coarse/strong sandpaper. I needed it for some resin with yellow box work, in a hollow form, that was extremely hard on tools and difficult to work with. So, no would be my answer.
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13th February 2014, 07:37 PM #21SENIOR MEMBER
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I had my first lessons from a well known Queensland woodturner who turned a lot of hard western Queensland timbers. He always went straight from the grinder to the lathe and did not mess around with any other "fuddy duddy" sharpening. So I have followed his actions and have done the same although my skews get a touch up with a stone.
Have I been missing out on something by not taking the intermediate step of sharpening again once off the grinder???
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13th February 2014, 09:14 PM #22SENIOR MEMBER
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G'day Kidbee
Here is a simple answer.
Depends if you want to turn wood or play with your tools.
Of course in real life things are never that simple.
Straight off the grinder and back to the lathe, suits many turners (myself included), while others get enjoyment from the process of polishing and honing the cutting edge. Or as you eluded to, "fuddy duddy" sharpening.
Some will debate/discuss forever, the merits of their preferred sharpening system.
Others just want to turn wood and make things.
A production turner who lives near me only uses a slipstone to sharpen his tools.
Can you imagine how many rubs it takes to wear out a tool without it ever touching a grinder.
I met a farmer in northern Victoria who produced acceptable work with a farm built lathe and tools made from old gudgeon pins welded onto a piece of pipe. These were sharpened on the grinding disc in the shearing shed. No flash tool for him.
At the other extreme I used to give turning lessons to a retired builder who had massive workshop full of all the best machines, tools and timbers. His collection of wood planes alone would have been worth thousands.
I don't think he ever produced any work other than to make fancy display cabinets for his plane collection.
Most of us fit somewhere between these two extremes'.
There are no right or wrongs, just our own preferences.
Of course safety should always be paramount.
That's all folks
Cheers
TimSome days I turns thisaway, somedays I turns thataway and other days I don't give a stuff so I don't turn at all.
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14th February 2014, 09:30 AM #23
I think you misunderstand me. The polishing of the flute is done once, before the tool is ever used. From then on it's sharpened and used as per usual... and I'm another "from the grinder to the lathe" type turner.
P&N's often have ridges or grooves down the length of the flute and when you sharpen the tool, it's the intersection of the flute & bevel that's the cutting edge, right? So if the flute has a groove, then when sharpened the cutting edge will have a 'nick' where that groove meets the bevel. Or a small 'bump' if the flute has a ridge.
Thus polishing the flute once to remove these gives you a good profile for the cutting edge for the life of the rest of the tool.
This applies to any gouge, of course, not just P&Ns. But P&N gouges are very prone to this [manufacturing] fault, which is probably why they are so cheap considering the quality of the steel. It really doesn't take that long to clean 'em up and I don't mind a bit of work if it saves me significant coin. (An equivalent Thompson costs over twice as much but doesn't give twice the performance!)
- Andy Mc
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14th February 2014, 09:41 PM #24SENIOR MEMBER
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Polishing the flute on a gouge is the equivalent of flattening the back of a cabinet making chisel or a plane blade
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15th February 2014, 07:49 AM #25SENIOR MEMBER
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15th February 2014, 08:23 AM #26
The meaning of life ...
Yes!!!!
That depends of course upon what you turn, wether you want to turn or sand! & on practicality - time vs money - if you happen to be a production/volume turner.
Fortunately I had the benefit of meeting and learning from many turners, from the roughest straight from the wheel types to one of the fuddy duddiest sharpening guru's in the wood turning world, and plenty of very good turners in between.
Simple one off tasks like honing flutes on bowl gouges, and more routine tasks like a light hone after the grinding wheel, well rewards the effort & time spent honing with a far better cut which often equates to missing one or even two, and perhaps all, steps/grades in sanding. Now if you choose to turn mongrel wood full of nasties like embeded sand, nails, wire etc or some of our Aussie well dried concrete like timbers, why bother to even touch the tool after the grinder? Keep the grinder spinning, don't even bother to turn the grinder off.
Despite popular thought the burr does not do the cutting on gouges & skews - the edge does. Different story for scrapers though.
Now take a quantum leap with honing tools for delicate turnings - no tool straight from a conventional 80g ALOX grinder will turn delicate or a 1mm thin finial with any real success. Hone suitable tools to a keeness similar to a razor and you will never touch that finial with sandpaper. Sanding on these items destroys the detail & often the item itself. Honed tools are a must.
To the original question – which gouge? Only one??
The gouge quality is linked to the above – if you are a “straight from the grinder” or a “no hone” turner then the benefits from the higher quality steels may not be all that much of a benefit to you. If you hone then the ASP2030, V10 etc steels will certainly benefit but may not be as radical as the blurb suggests. Quality manufactured M2 HSS is all that most turners will ever require. It holds a good edge for a satisfactory length of turning time and is not brittle. The harder the steel generally means it is relatively brittle when compared to M2 HSS – nasties usually take out good chunks of steel. Price was a sticking point but now the “newer” steels are becoming far more competitive.
I’ve been using Hamlet ASP2030 (spindle & skews) & Thompson (bowl, spindle & skews) plus P&N and a range of M2 HSS Sorby, Hamlet, Crown, Henry Taylor tools. Which is better? The tool you have got! Learn to sharpen it well and practice. I have preferences for certain tools in certain applications and they all don’t come from the same stable or even the same steel type.
Now a preference for “U”, “Vee”, Supa, Parabolic, Master flute shapes and “bottom feeder”, “Ellsworth”, “Irish” grinds – best of luck sorting that one out. Each has a benefit in a particular application and has often been proven through much trial and effort. Work out what you prefer to turn and see what the “successful” turners making similar items use. Chances are each will have a different preference. If you get a chance to try another turners tools / grinds have a go, never know they may actually be onto something, then again they may not.
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16th February 2014, 09:25 AM #27GOLD MEMBER
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two advantages of honing I like are the Sharp tool needs less force to perform a cut or roll a bead, and in a production environment honing a tool dare I say gives you a break away from the lathe which is beneficial for the mind! turning 4 to 7 balusters an hour takes alot of concentration and even though I'm leaning against a bench honing I'm having a "break" . don't get me wrong I enjoy turning!
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16th February 2014, 06:49 PM #28
Tim - is that an original Glaser or a Glaser Hitec?
If one of the newer Hitecs, then I already have your opinion on that.
If an original, have you also had a chance to use one of the newer Hitecs and how do they compare?
The old 'Glasers' must be getting a bit rare now. I'd be sleeping with it under my pillow!Stay sharp and stay safe!
Neil
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16th February 2014, 08:02 PM #29
Neil, I know of 1 other 1/2" Glaser Bowl Gouge in the wild and seen it at work. My 1/4" version is safely tucked away.
Pat
Work is a necessary evil to be avoided. Mark Twain
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16th February 2014, 08:23 PM #30
I'll have to try Skew's tip with the polished flutes. Mine aren't too bad as I always hone both the flute and the edge but I might spend some dedicated time to doing it properly. Actually; I need to dedicate some time to actually doing some turning as it's been a few months since I span anything in anger...
I have my little lathe set up on a rolling table with the grinder on the opposite corner for easy sharpening. I do most of my turning straight off the grinder but when I do finish turning I have a 19mm thick MDF disc mounted on a faceplate that I use for honing. Give it a lick with polishing soap and it puts a beaut edge on anything; I hone all my knives on this wheel as well. On the face of the disc I glued some of that non-slip mesh stuff; I use it for finishing off the bottoms of bowls by jamming them between the disc and the tailstock; the friction holds the whole lot together tight enough to remove the chuck spigot off the bottom.
Next project is to have a disc I can mount behind behind the chuck...
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