Thread: Stainless steel rifflers from Lee Valley

Originally Posted by rob streeper

I agree. I think that a narrower and even more curved set would be useful too. A curved rat tail would be great.

That was just an idea that I had - I figured it could be useful for certain tasks (not just handles), and that has been the case although it's not often used (but nor do I make handles). Funny thing is that only one other person ever ordered one.

They can certainly make a curved Ratty for you Rob - you just have to ask them, and specify the curve that you would like.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

For complete clarity, the Handle Makers Rasp was not an idea that Liogier came up with at all, and in fact they were unaware that they existed. A request by an Australian woodworker was made asking if they made such a thing (because the Gramercy had already been out of stock for a considerable period, and not likely to return), and as they did not make one the shape was developed though two prototypes, in early 2012, involving much public discussion.

The first curve, although more prominent than the Gramercy (i.e. smaller radius), was deemed by the testers to be not quite enough, and so a second curve was drawn and submitted to them (an even smaller radius). It was that curve that became the production model, and by all accounts it has proven very popular.

You can acquaint yourself with the facts here (unfortunately many pics have gone missing due to a forum error during an upgrade a couple of years ago):
https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...le+makers+rasp

Hardly a qualified opinion from someone who has never used one, and who seems to prefer facts rather than speculation (based upon previous posts).

Double the cost of the Liogier or the Gramercy? The latter may well be true (but moot, as you say), but certainly not the former - freight costs are available on the website.

I was around then, you may recall me from Sawmill Creek, as I always was one of the most vocal about folks who are compensated showing up and attempting back door marketing.

The only part of that I was not privy to was that the blanks had been bent further by request, it's still not my preference, but like I said that's a matter of opinion and perhaps a matter of method that creates that*.

AS far as the rasps go, i have done my reading about the gramercy rasps vs. the french rasps, and all of the experienced users who have commented on the two have said that there is a negligible difference between the two. Perhaps there may be some preference for the geometry of the blank from one user to another, but the stitching on the gramercy rasps is fabulous and I've never seen anyone suggest that there is much or any improvement over that in the french rasps.

That said, the only fine rasp I use (quality, not grain) is the gramercy saw handle maker's rasp. If the stitching were lacking, I would've sprung for the liogier rasp, but the gramercy rasp lacks nothing unless someone wants a set of three in various stitches. It does lack one thing right now, though, and that's availability.

I'm open to opinions from people who are not "fan boys" of either company (for example, it can be difficult to get an honest opinion from users of lie nielsen tools as there is a faction of folks who is uncompensated, but who is at the edge of their seats waiting for the next thing). And certainly, i'm not interested in opinions from people compensated or given tools by either gramercy or liogier. I already think the disclosure of such things is seriously lacking in the woodworking tool community.

* the appropriate way to cut a saw handle with a rasp is to use a coarse fast cutting rasp to do the bulk of the work quickly faceting a handle (the inexpensive hand stitched rasps work fine for that, lee valley sells some, even though those rasps don't do a very good job of finish vs. fineness, they are aggressive and fast and don't have a sharp point and don't thus ding up the opposite side of a cut). The same coarse rasp can knock down the junctions of the facets and then the whole bit is cleaned up with a saw handle maker's rasps and the finished profile of the curve set up. The desire to have a rasp that is not sharply curved along its entire length is because it is merely a clean up and light work tool, and a steep curve is a serious threat to the crisp transition lines that exist on the seaton style handles, which are the finest work to be found, far above and beyond a handle that's had those lines rounded off (something akin to playing piano without ever releasing the pedal). The straight part of the gramercy rasp allows you to work near you transition line with care and not remove it - that's important. I do finish work then with a file and scraper (no need for another rasp and no sandpaper). I don't know if gramercy likes the straight part of the rasp as I do for the same reason, I know they make a lot of saws and joel doesn't do much without thinking pretty hard about it. They are that way for a reason, I'm sure. Recall that they put to rest the idea that any of the rasps had a short lifetime due to lack of coating by actually financing a machine to test rasps for either a million or two million strokes?

At any rate, I use that process because it's fast and it does a fine job (as fine of work as you can do) and leaves the transition line crisp. If expensive rasps would speed up the handle making process, I'd have them.

I defer on the furniture because I don't make furniture that requires rasping, nor do most people who buy rasps. they'd be as well served with one good rasp, a coarse rasps and a file, but you can't tell bloggers that.

I mentioned the nicholson rasp because I have it, but that seems to have been construed as me liking it. I don't, and don't use it. It's too flat for handles, and it's neither fast nor fine.

Finally, knowing that gramercy has an exceptional set of rasps (furniture rasps vouched for by others, saw rasp, I'll vouch for) made in pakistan, it hardly seems unreasonable to look at the LV rifflers, notice that they are stitched quite nicely and conclude that they're probably pretty good.

I'm always puzzled (and you didn't do this on this thread) by the sentiment that we should not buy hand made goods from third world countries given that the skilled folks making them there are literally fighting to exist. We're fighting to have big houses, two cars and a month of paid vacation.

I will GLADLY help get a few pennies in the hands of a skilled pakistani man (or woman) doing good work.

A reality that many western world companies choose to ignore in order to increase their own profit margin. Zero moral values.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/862464/c...age-workforce/

Originally Posted by planemaker

http://tribune.com.pk/story/862464/c...age-workforce/

That doesn't seem to me to be a good reason to take work away from the skilled adult workers there. You have reason to believe that the rasps are made under those conditions? I doubt that's who's doing the skilled work.

We do always (in the organized world) like to guilt societies for doing things our societies did before we were economically and politically as organized as we are now.

It didn't go back very far here, nor probably there. My grandparents worked in the fields with their parents. School was secondary, and you had no obligation to stay in it if your parents needed your help farming. Kids left school to work in factory jobs, etc. Coal miners took their kids into the mines with them to meet quota and kids worked the breakers picking coal. This is in my state.

http://home.epix.net/~captclint/brkboys.jpg

It wouldn't have done them any good to be starved by hoity toity europeans. their kids certainly have it better than they did, and the kids of their kids better yet.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I was around then, you may recall me from Sawmill Creek, as I always was one of the most vocal about folks who are compensated showing up and attempting back door marketing.

Oh I remember you alright. It took a while for the penny to drop when you showed up here as D.W. but eventually the penny dropped when I noticed similarities in, shall we say, "writing style". As far as compensation, back doors, marketing etc goes: you were completely and utterly wrong and offensive then, just as you are now if you are implying that I get compensated by Liogier for doing anything, anywhere in the world. I don't know for an actual fact where you got your information from (at that time) but I would be quite certain that I know where it came from (and happy to fill you in by PM). If my suspicions are correct, then you been led astray by a very well known (here) pest who has several axes to grind with several people.

I chose not to rebutt your fallacious (and potentially libellous) claim on SMC because I doubted very much that I would have been believed (under the circumstances), and it would have only made the situation worse. I simply chose to walk away because it just didn't mean that much in any case (and it certainly wasn't going to harm my compensation - hard to harm what doesn't exist).

The fact of the matter is that I paid for the HMR prototypes to be made, and also paid for the >$100 postage costs to move them around Australia to the various testers (and using my own money, to be precise). Just as I did with the Engineers file testing (all Liogier files), and just as I did with the saw files testing (files from several manufacturers).

To be completely transparent: Liogier supplied without charge about 6 of the 15+ Engineers files that were tested, and the rest were purchased by myself. I fully expected them to be not much use once they arrived back to me, but to my surprise they were all still in very good condition. Testament to their quality I suppose, eh? So I have six partially used free files.

Furthermore, I have received 3-4 prototype floats from Liogier without charge. The prototypes were spot on and required no changes, so I have some free production model floats. wow. That's a pretty small compensation for once more paying for all the postage to send them around the country to the various people who tested the float prototypes. It seems I do spend quite a bit on postage doesn't it?

Oops, nearly forgot: a few months ago I received yet another free float prototype, but this time the specification was incorrect in two areas. The float is still usable though.

I severely doubt that anybody (with maybe one exception) has a problem with me keeping those 10(?) tools without charge.

Originally Posted by D.W.

The only part of that I was not privy to was that the blanks had been bent further by request

They weren't just bent further by request, they were actually brought back to be able to be purchased by request. People wanted a handle makers rasp - none were available - might be a good idea to get some made again.

Originally Posted by D.W.

AS far as the rasps go, i have done my reading about the gramercy rasps vs. the french rasps, and all of the experienced users who have commented on the two have said that there is a negligible difference between the two. Perhaps there may be some preference for the geometry of the blank from one user to another, but the stitching on the gramercy rasps is fabulous and I've never seen anyone suggest that there is much or any improvement over that in the french rasps.

And I have never claimed that the Liogier is superior to the Gramercy. It's a bit silly to bang on about the Gramercy v Liogier - the Gramercy hasn't been available for at least 3 years or more. The longitudinal curve is not the only difference in geometry. The half round profile was also different, and has subsequently been changed again about a year ago. It was first made from a 6" Cabinet Makers profile, but I believe that it is now made from a 6" half round.

Originally Posted by D.W.

That said, the only fine rasp I use (quality, not grain) is the gramercy saw handle maker's rasp. If the stitching were lacking, I would've sprung for the liogier rasp, but the gramercy rasp lacks nothing unless someone wants a set of three in various stitches. It does lack one thing right now, though, and that's availability.

I don't recall anyone, anywhere, criticising the Gramercy stitching.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'm open to opinions from people who are not "fan boys" of either company (for example, it can be difficult to get an honest opinion from users of lie nielsen tools as there is a faction of folks who is uncompensated, but who is at the edge of their seats waiting for the next thing). And certainly, i'm not interested in opinions from people compensated or given tools by either gramercy or liogier. I already think the disclosure of such things is seriously lacking in the woodworking tool community.

Ummm, where have I expressed an opinion in this thread? Nothing but facts, I'm afraid. I did urge caution with such cheap tools in an earlier post, but at the same time said that they were such a very good price that there was "not much to lose".

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'm always puzzled (and you didn't do this on this thread) by the sentiment that we should not buy hand made goods from third world countries given that the skilled folks making them there are literally fighting to exist.

If your implication is that I have done this in other threads then that is incorrect as well.

As for your claim a few months ago that "someone once said that we should all go out and purchase coated rasps": that too was inaccurate. If you look here then you will see that the last sentence of the second last para says "For me the difference is quite clearly in favour of coating.". "Me", get it?

I suspect you may need to work on your fact finding a little harder, especially given that you espouse that facts should be correct.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

...........

You told us you had been either hired or contracted by liogier to promote their stuff (that may have been removed on the other forum by now, they exercise their delete key often). That makes you biased. I have gotten free things, though I've never been paid. I can't really express much opinion (and don't) on anything I've been given. It's natural for us to want to favor things we've been involved in, same as we like to consider our high school team better than another one that we play to a draw. We've invested time, received something, or received compensation and human nature drives the bias.

When I came over here, i was completely clear who I am, I didn't wait for it to materialize from my writing style. I do have strong opinions, but i'm not in anyones' camp, promoting anything for anyone, and I don't pitch anything I've been involved with.

As far as the coating thing, you did a very brief "test", shall well call it, declared that without coating the wear rate is fast with a rasp but didn't go further to ask the question "what does it mean as a rasp wears". Joel answered that. They actually cut faster.

Originally Posted by D.W.

You told us you had been either hired or contracted by liogier to promote their stuff (that may have been removed on the other forum by now, they exercise their delete key often).

Get your facts right! I have NEVER said that because it has NEVER happened.

PROVE IT!

Edit: You are confusing reality with what was said to you by someone else. You believed it so much that you have morphed it into what I have said.

Now, I demand an apology.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Get your facts right! I have NEVER said that because it has NEVER happened.

PROVE IT!

I'll see if I can find it. I'd be curios to know who was troubling you back then. It appears the file petition thread is gone from SMC. I'm not surprised. Times like this are one of the reasons I really don't love that they delete so many threads there.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'll see if I can find it. I'd be curios to know who was troubling you back then. It appears the file petition thread is gone from SMC. I'm not surprised. Times like this are one of the reasons I really don't love that they delete so many threads there.

I t is highly likely that the deleted threads still exist on the server, but are just in moderation permanently. Therefore I suggest you contact a moderator and get a copy of the thread or post sent to you.

Otherwise you can damned well apologise for your remarks.

If you want to know "who was troubling me" (as well as troubling others) then send a PM and I'll tell you what I suspect was happening.

Here's the best there is:

I have designed tools for them, which includes the Handle Maker's Rasp (despite what has been written elsewhere, and without acknowledgement of my involvement). Their forthcoming range of Plane & Joinery Floats (they have released two so far) has also been a collaboration between us, as was the Vicious Bastard (a plate rasp in a holder in the same style as used for tangless Milled File Plates).

IN that same thread, you linked to your "file test" thread, and that link leads to the moderator's gate, so it is in fact off limits.

Now, given that's years ago now, and I remember you have liogier bias (didn't remember the saw handle maker's thing, but now I see why so much bias there, too), you can't really expect people to remember all of your details much more clearly. Compensation or not, you have far more bias than you'd need to affect objectivity.

I don't have company bias with anyone, but I do have my biases. Toward the double iron, and if someone shows up green and badmouths George Wilson (not in reference to you, just thinking of the things that I don't wait too long to play out), I don't have much love for that, because he is a friend, and he's generous to people he really shouldn't even waste his time talking to.

Joel answered that. They actually cut faster.

Read details on Sapphire Range. http://www.liogier-france.fr/experti...sTechniques-en

Originally Posted by planemaker

Joel answered that. They actually cut faster.

Read details on Sapphire Range. http://www.liogier-france.fr/experti...sTechniques-en

I don't see any details of where or what they used to come up with that. I do know what joel presented his actual details, and they were in wood, done with a controlled machine with more strokes than most of us will put on a rasp.

I'd imagine that coating of liogier's is quite useful when the medium is something harder or more abrasive than wood. Thus far, I've made about 75 handles and I don't notice anything in any of my rasps. Those handles have been from beech, to bois de rose, to cocobolo, and I have done all of the roughing work with the rasps (no routering or anything of the sort).

Between joel's tests and what I've seen, I'll have to see a rasp that becomes slow cutting, as it's likely that many would be dropped or lost in my shop before they're dull.

Just had a thought come to mind: the only indication that I have ever given about potential compensation was to do with saw files. That is, if Lioger decided to start making my designs then I may receive a royalty. I had no problem declaring that potential then, just as now.

The thing is....they haven't been produced, but still may be. All very much up in the air. And no, you don't need to respond with "no problems with saw files" because hundreds of other people do have a problem, apparently.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I t is highly likely that the deleted threads still exist on the server, but are just in moderation permanently. Therefore I suggest you contact a moderator and get a copy of the thread or post sent to you.

Otherwise you can damned well apologise for your remarks.

If you want to know "who was troubling me" (as well as troubling others) then send a PM and I'll tell you what I suspect was happening.

They do archive their threads, most places probably do as it's easier to move them than it is to get rid of them. As for the second part, the insistence is your bias. If you can suggest that none exists with proof, I'll apologize, but it would take quite an explanation for me to believe that.

I am still waiting for the resolution to the file emergency (and in the mean time have bought 10 boxes of bahcos).
To be fair, you weren't the only one suggesting that we needed better files. We were to get some from japan to, and those never came, presumably because the easy supply of inexpensive bahcos here makes it hard to make that case.

I vaguely recall who you might be talking about re: the PM issue, but I got most of my suspicion waiting to find out how the file crisis was going to be resolved with your involvement (and that was at the time that you were working with liogier to make files, reword that as necessary, but we haven't seen them).

I have quite the task ahead of me this weekend, by the way, I'm going to cut 4 teeth per inch into new 1095 to make a frame saw, and I intend to do it with a single $6 file over a length of 3 1/2 feet.