Thread: Record Power dust extraction - are they a viable alternative???

My TS is 2 HP but works on a normal 10 Amp circuit but I believe draws less than that.

Originally Posted by barri

My TS is 2 HP but works on a normal 10 Amp circuit but I believe draws less than that.

See BobL's post above on the power needed for the tablesaw. and the power requiremnets to run both.

If you own the house the power upgrade he suggests might be worth it but if you rent then you would need permission etc and need to make other assessments as to its viability.

Cheers

Doug

Originally Posted by barri

My TS is 2 HP but works on a normal 10 Amp circuit but I believe draws less than that.

The 2HP is just a nominal rating and the actual current it draws will depend on the load.

I haven't tested a 2HP TS but I have done extensive measurements on motors and a 3HP TS.

For example my 3HP TS draws, ~45A for a fraction of a second when it starts up,r ~5A free running, ~7A under light cutting, ~10A medium cutting, and above 12A when heavy cutting. At 17A the thermal fuse on the motor trips.

A 2HP motor will scale accordingly and will also draw a lot more than 10A when it starts and may well draw >10A when under a heavy load.

This is catered for by circuit breakers as the do not trip on a specific current, but will allow for the current to go well above that for a brief period, and just over 10A for quite a long period before it trips.

10A circuits also do not usually use 10A breakers.
Breakers are there to protect wiring, not devices as these should look after themselves.
10A circuits use appropriate wiring and 16A or 20A breakers because more than one device is often being used on them so it is possible to have multiple 10A devices on the one circuit providing they are not all operating at peak load at the same time.

For example one of our 10A circuits at home has the microwave, dishwasher, large (2kW) coffee machine, and 2kW electric kettle all on the same circuit.
The breaker only drops out when all 4 are running at the same time.

The limit on device type that can be plugged into 10A is usually determined by the plug and socket

By law devices that are deemed 15A devices should have a 15A plug and be on 15A circuits (i.e. appropriate wiring) and it should be one device running at one time on the circuit with its own breaker.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

2kw coffee machine... Must make a mean brew!

Indeed
Actually its 2.3kW.
It's a 12 year old La Cimbali Junior, plumbed in for water input and waste.
It is well insulated so when is not heating the boiler draws on average 100W.
Two grinders Caf (Mazzer) and Decaf (Iberital)
shrinex.jpg

Under the nearby sink theres a water purification system that feeds it that is almost as fancy.
IMG_3068p.jpg

Larger (3 group - can make 3 cups at the same time) cafe sized coffee machines are 3 Phase and some draw as much as 6.5kW

Originally Posted by BobL

However, seeing as you were prepared to spend $700 on the Record you can probably spend $400 on a DC 3 and $300 will get close to getting you a dedicated 15A circuit if the breaker board is not too far away.

However, the stock (out of the box) DC3 is still very limited and won't solve your problems unless you modify it, use 6" ducting and enclose it and vent the DC exhaust outside the shed.
Check out the Sticky thread on the DC3 at the top of this forum to see what I mean.

I think I'll just worry about The DC for now, try it out and see if I need another circuit. I may not. I can also move the white car outside and wheel the DC onto to the driveway when in use but that would require a longer hose. About 6 meters. Does that diminish performance? I've just read your sticky and comments about the DC3 (machinery warehouse) and FM300 (carbatec) so I won't ask about that but they do seem similar.

As for the 6" modification, is it really necessary for use on one machine? Does it make that much difference? I've read countless threads on DCs and this forum emphasizes it more than others.

Boy, from thinking about a small VC type unit to moving cars, moving DCs, employing an electrician, modifying hoses, modifying outlets, bag types, buying accessories like remote power plugs to start the TS and DC at the same time, step down pipes to use with my ROS and other power tools and the list goes on and on. I can see why others get confused.

Great advice from all, thanks.

Originally Posted by barri

I think I'll just worry about The DC for now, try it out and see if I need another circuit. I may not. I can also move the white car outside and wheel the DC onto to the driveway when in use but that would require a longer hose. About 6 meters. Does that diminish performance? I've just read your sticky and comments about the DC3 (machinery warehouse) and FM300 (carbatec) so I won't ask about that but they do seem similar.

Yes they are similar.

6m hose will reduce performance. If you could use a 6m length of PVC that would be a bit better.

Moving the DC onto a drive way will be a big improvement provided you have the garage door closed as much as possible and close up any gaps around the ducting The reason for this is using a DC outside a shed produces a negative pressure inside the shed and the DC produces a positive pressure outside the shed so some fine dust will be draw towards any gaps in the shed and put that patina of fine dust back into the shed. However this method also has its draw backs see below.

As for the 6" modification, is it really necessary for use on one machine? Does it make that much difference? I've read countless threads on DCs and this forum emphasizes it more than others.

I guess there are not many forums that have the expertise of someone that worked on airflow, dust analysis, measurements and filtration for 30 years of their working life. Few folks bother to try 6" ducting but once they try it they would not go back to 4".

Boy, from thinking about a small VC type unit to moving cars, moving DCs, employing an electrician, modifying hoses, modifying outlets, bag types, buying accessories like remote power plugs to start the TS and DC at the same time, step down pipes to use with my ROS and other power tools and the list goes on and on. I can see why others get confused.

Yep dust control is not simple and unlike most woodwork things it's definitely not intuitive.
This is why from the manufacturers down the chain there are so many mistakes made.

There's no need for a remote power plug to start the DC and TS at the same time.

With a smaller half throttled DC like a DC3 if you want to maximise fine dust control you don't turn it on/off just when just using a machine. This is because it simply doesn't grab all the dust at source while its being made so a substantial fraction escapes into the shed and has to be vented for some time after the dust making activity ceases. This means when you start your first dust making machine you turn the DC on and only turn it off half an hour or so later. In practice this often means leaving it on all the time. Would your wife and neighbours like this.

An alternative to continually running the DC is if you have the DC outside on the driveway and close the door down as above, use the saw/tools with the DC and having the DC on for a few minutes after use, then opening the door up.
The effectiveness of this would depend on the strength of the breezes at the time.
For me the constant opening and closing of the door would be a right royal PITA.

If 6" ducting and a modified DC3 is used, as this results in more dust being collected at source and it moves more air to begin with, the time to vent is reduced by a factor of 3-4 , while with a bigger DC the time to vent drops by a factor 8-10. With my setup 2 minutes is enough to clean up the air in the shed after most wood working activities.

Basically with your setup you can't really expect to come close to really taming the dust dragon without using very annoying work practices and leaving a DC3 running most of the time.

If it was me in your situation , considering all the practicalities above I would use the DC in the shed just while it's making dust, leave all the doors and windows open, and use a mask and when you can add some exhaust fans - can you put a couple in the ceiling?

Sorry I can be the bearer of better news.

Ceiling fans, that's a great idea. An electrician is needed after all. If I go down that path then I might as well get him to add another circuit.
I take your point about the 6" modification. I wasn't questioning your expertise, in fact, I highly respect it. That's why I asked.

This may sound like a silly question, but is the meter box near the garage and does it have a power point in it? If so it may be on a seperate circuit and you could move a portable dust collector outside if/when needed.

Yes it is close but no power point but I have already have outside powerpoints. While I was there I noticed all the power circuits were labelled as 16 amps. So I might be right.
As for outside its simple not possible. There isn't a suitable spot unless I'm willing to sleep out there ie the dog house!!!

Is this a single storey building? I see you have double brick wall, which has got high compressive load strength, so it would be possible to wall mount the fan on brackets, and vent to the outside through the ceiling if it is. Pretty easy to do with a wood heater flue kit and a Dektite. You'd need a two stage system to preseparate as much dust as you can, but I think it could work in your situation.

image.jpeg

If if this looks cobbled together it's because it is. The fan and 2hp motor used to be bolted to a structural beam for my mezzanine, the Thien separator was hinged off the side of the stair landing, with a few bolts to secure it to the wheelie bin. I used some boot lid rubber picked up at the wreckers to provide a seal between the bin and the Thien. I used aluminium range hood duct to vent the fan outside through a self closing wall vent. Not as efficient as a cyclone but did a reasonable job, and kept the extractor close to the tools to keep hose length as short as possible. I keep my mower and brushcutter under the stairs, so I did it this way to optimise space without too much inconvenience.

Just thought it might give some ideas.

We have discussed that one before - it does indeed look better than a DC3.
Pleated filter helps keep the air flowing a bit longer but they all leak which is the main reason for getting them venting outside.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

BobL, what about this 2HP DE from Timbecon: https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...dust-extractor

It has the motor bolted right to the body, plus a 6" inlet.

I was going to buy that plus the 1200 high pleated filter.

Being an must-indoors machine, would this suit up to your "2HP mod" ideal?

I did a search on this machine and found some info but I'll like to hear from someone who owns it. I like the idea that it doesn't need
the mod on other 2HP machines.

Can anyone give a review?

Originally Posted by barri

I did a search on this machine and found some info but I'll like to hear from someone who owns it. I like the idea that it doesn't need
the mod on other 2HP machines.

Can anyone give a review?

I cannot give a review as I do not own one or have ever seen one but what I see in regards to performance looks good. 6" inlet has to be a plus, as does the outlet of the blower going straight into the collector bag and needlefelt bag. T

BUT, I cannot see from the picture if they were done right. (with efficiency of air flow in mind) If they have not made all the transitions right there may still be choke points. If they are done right then it could be a goer, if not then you may still need to do modifications on this unit to get the efficiency needed. It is, however a good thing to see a manufacturer listening to the woodworkers for a change.

Now I mentioned choke points in the previous paragraph.Even if that dusty is up to specs, then the choke point becomes the collection port on the machine. If you do not want to make the modifications necessary there, on the machine, then what is the point in paying the extra money for this dusty?

On the subject of coat, you can often pick up a second-hand 2hp dusty for maybe $100 - $200 and spend a few hours with some scraps lying around to do the mod for minimal cost. Then you would know it has been done right, instead of paying several hundred more for the already having the t6' inlet

Cheers

Doug

So following advice here I ended up with a carbatec DC. No problems with power Doug. I have ducted along the floor and behind benches but it has to be movable in a small workshop. One day I'll mount the pipes along walls and set up an arrangement that allows easy moving. This is working well and there is definitely less dust but I know the DC should be outside. As this is not possible, at the moment, I'll continue with good ventilation and a good respirator. I bought an overhead dust arm, which I've now got for sale ( Carbatec overhead adjustable dust arm ) but thanks to google I found a good PVC arrangement which works well. I haven't exactly figured out the best setup for a guard/hood. I use sleds a lot (see panel sled in the image) which makes a guard more difficult but whatever I end up with it must be adjustable. On Rockler's site they have Flexform hose which works like a straw ie bend it and it stays that way. That might be my answer. Any suggestions?

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