Thread: Domino vs Dowelling Jig

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Derek, without being able to see the full article and without knowing the size and quantity of both dowels and dominoes used, that chart has little meaning.
The fact that domino performed in line with biscuits, rather than in line with dowels or beadlock throws up some serious questions for me regarding their construction; after all, what is a domino, if not a wide dowel or flat beadlock?

Good questions. I just read the article in full and looked at the photos. The big difference I can see is the size of the tenon, loose tenon, bead lock and domino. The domino was by far the smallest joining item of the four.
So all was not equal.

Thanks Lappa. This is why a chart on its own, with no further information, can, and probably should, be discarded right from the start.

NOTE: This is not a dig at Derek, this is just to highlight the need for complete information, not just the bits that fit the argument.

Chris there is no reason for you or anyone else to be upset. I'm guessing you just linked to the video without refreshing yourself with the content. All he does is slap together a few drawer boxes using dominos, dowels and pocket screws and then times which is faster. That's a pretty damn good scenario for a bloke looking to make computer desks out of melamine which will have plenty of drawers needing to be slapped together. All of the methods he uses are suitable for melamine joinery.

The joint strength tests should be concluded with a line like "as expected, the joint which offered the most long grain to long grain glue surface area which was able to be reliably cut and clamped throughout the duration of the curing process wins the day." <- that is how to select a joint. When you don't have enough long grain to glue to, you then select a mechanical joint or fixing. That's for maximum strengths. I'm a big fan of shrugging my shoulders and saying "meh, close enough is good enough and good enough is perfect!"

I wish people would get over this need to bash the Domino, or alternatively, dowel jigs. If it doesn't float yer boat, don't use it. Gee people, get a life!

I don’t see anyone bashing anything! I see a discussion on various methods of attaching timber, the pros and cons, and discussions on various articles. In fact the majority of discussion has been pro Domino.

Ian wrote:

and the question that is never addressed is --- What is strong enough for the intended usage?

Spot on.

It is horses for courses. I was very happy to purchase and use a Domino 500 when building my kitchen last year. While I prefer traditional joints made by hand tools, no doubt it will get used in the future. I still have a biscuit machine, and it comes out when I do mitres. Krenov was a big fan of dowels when joining carcases. I have done so in the past as well. I prefer M&T for chairs. I prefer dovetails for carcases in solid wood .... depending on the design. Everything is depending on the design and materials.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Show me the domino bashing in this thread

What sort of cabinetry are we making here?

I forgot to address the OP's posts needs when I went on my spontaneous over-selling.

I was recently asked by a fairly large organisation to make up designs for 50-odd cabinets which are 2400 tall, 900 wide and 900 deep. They would be big cases not much different to a humongous kitchen cupboard. There would be several permanent shelves and a few moveable (just with little Hafele pins). Some would have backs, others not.

Strength is required as they would each be free-standing and also be on wheels. They will be moved occasionally (not often).

When I went and spoke with a kitchen cabinet company to CNC all the components for me, they were quite happy to have it all made up with screws and slots/biscuits for locating panels. They said this would have been plenty strong enough. Their CNC would even pre-drill everything.... but when I mentioned the Lamello Zeta as an option they almost starting jumping around like chimps. It seems they think it's pretty amazing, but their setup couldn't make the Zeta slots - I'd need to add these myself.

Speaking with Lincoln Century it seems one can get a machine for a decent price. I certainly wouldn't buy it based on speculation or for "going after a job"... but if the job did land I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.

Keep in mind, with above, I have never actually used a Lamello Zeta.

edit: also, by "chairs" I mean little kids chairs, not adult dining chairs or anything fancy. My chairs are pine and MDF and tough enough for a tank to roll over them. A totally different solution!

Originally Posted by woodPixel

What sort of cabinetry are we making here?

Well, the bulk of stuff I need to make will be using 16mm Melamine - it'll be kitchen cabinets, and storage type cabinets for several other rooms. So, the sort of stuff where 16mm Melamine kind of disappears like coins in a slot machine.

From there, I want to make some outdoor furniture, some occasional chairs and coffee table - likely enough, anyway. And truthfully, some of that would require tenons larger than the Domino 500 could accommodate, so I'd be likely enough chipping out mortise & tenon on that stuff with a few chisels and some nice music in the background... maybe

Boiling it down, I know there's a lot of melamine work - there is likely to be shaker style kitchen cabinet doors (probably maple or similar). From there, it's a lot more undecided at this stage.

In my mind, and given feedback to date, I was thinking of the Domino 500, assuming it is up to the task of the melamine carcasses (I believe it with some Titebond to glue joints should be?). If it falls into disuse, my understanding of Festool is that it retains good resale value, so I could always sell it, and then realise the next day I need it (which is what always happens, right?)

Make sure you use proper melamine glue, normal PVA will just peel straight off.

Originally Posted by LGS

I wish people would get over this need to bash the Domino, or alternatively, dowel jigs.

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Show me the domino bashing in this thread

Sometimes an absence of Domino fawning can be interpreted as Domino bashing, perhaps? Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Lappa

I don’t see anyone bashing anything! I see a discussion on various methods of attaching timber, the pros and cons, and discussions on various articles. In fact the majority of discussion has been pro Domino.

Agreed. Nothing but the usual non-hysterical discussion going on. Fair, balanced and ambivalent I would say. To suggest that any tool is perfect and beyond any criticism or analysis is somewhere between questionable and ridiculous. To state that this has turned into a Domino bashing is, shall we euphemistically say, "somewhat inaccurate".

Originally Posted by LGS

If it doesn't float yer boat, don't use it.

Well if people don't give both or three sides of the argument then how will the OP make a decision? That's non-sensical at best, in the context of this thread.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

I forgot to address the OP's posts needs when I went on my spontaneous over-selling.

Not to be confused with bashing, of course.

Originally Posted by LGS

Gee people, get a life!

Quite.

Just so we all know what was actually said...

bash the Domino, or alternatively, dowel jigs.

I have a Domino, have since they were released in Oz.

But please, be sure that you understand before you flush your "you offend me" quotes, just what I have said. Maybe bashing was a tad strong,but the same old same old "Mine's better then yours because..." You can look through the archives and find much information on both the domino and various Dowel jigs and the domino.

When I started playing with wood there were lots of options for joinery and every decade or so someone comes out with a new system that people swing to when it proves to make their life easier for the woodworking they do.

I never liked dowels because getting good alignment even with jigs was a PIA so I used dados cut with a table saw for sheet goods.

Then Lamelo brought their biscuit tool to North America and I bought one. I found that it was great for a lot more than replacing the dados in sheet goods. The only time it wasn't suitable was when the pieces were too narrow for the biscuit. I even used them to make an oak screen door that got slammed every time I went in or out of the front door for over 25 years without any of the joints opening. I'll add that I even have the little mini biscuit tool that Royobi made for a while that was great for small work. Used it a couple weeks ago. They didn't catch on though, probably because it was Royobi and not from a loved name like Festool.

Then the pocket hole system started appearing and eventually I got a Kreg setup (on sale of course) and found it was handy for some things but not all.

My father told me of machines they had in Danish furniture factories in the 1930's that he called a long hole boring machine. It cut a slot for a loose tenon by a bit oscillating back and forth while you advanced the wood into it like a morticing machine. Slot depth and width were adjustable as needed. Sound familiar? Years later Festool came out with the Domino system and it is the rage these days. If I didn't already have the Lamelo biscuit tool I would already have one. I'll have to wait for the day when I can justify it to the Ministress of Finances.

What I haven't seen anyone mention yet is that kitchen cases can be made with a few screws, glue and a lot of pneumatically driven brads or staples. As far as being quality work to be proud of it is yuckers but it can do the job fast and can last.

I don't know what the next wave will be, probably a hand held wood welder.

To the OP I would say pass on the doweling jigs, and get a biscuit joiner like a Lamelo classic or Makita for the next few years if you are struggling with the cash. If not then the Domino as it is an all rounder and can do most everything, maybe not perfectly, but very good at least.

You'll have many projects in the future where you will turn to traditional machine methods or hand tools.

Pete

Originally Posted by LGS

Maybe bashing was a tad strong,but the same old same old "Mine's better then yours because...[/COLOR]

Because that's literally what the question was...