Thread: Do craftsmen use powertools for jointing

Originally Posted by silentC

Coming back to the original query, if you're using a machine to dig a mortice but you're using a handplane to smooth the rails and stiles before assembly, I don't think you're missing out on too much in that regard.

Mate
I think you hit the nail on the head there - as long as it was a good old fashioned claw hammer not a super douper high powered nail gun.

Stu

From my point of view on this being a young teen around 16 myself, i love wood working, been aiming high in it at school in past 4 years, i believe that its good to know how to do both, but i tend to lean towards old being better, also more 'involved'. Tools can be abused though, kids at school use an electric sander to sand 2mm off something instead of sand paper

Originally Posted by thebullfrog07

From my point of view on this being a young teen around 16 myself, i love wood working, been aiming high in it at school in past 4 years, i believe that its good to know how to do both, but i tend to lean towards old being better, also more 'involved'. Tools can be abused though, kids at school use an electric sander to sand 2mm off something instead of sand paper

How good is this - a 16 yr old who can spell AND do wordwork. Not one bit of shorthand texting and a great attitude. I hope woodworking brings you the pleasure it has obviously brought everyone else here. Just watch your fingers.....

Stu

Originally Posted by hahnice

How good is this - a 16 yr old who can spell AND do wordwork. Not one bit of shorthand texting and a great attitude. I hope woodworking brings you the pleasure it has obviously brought everyone else here. Just watch your fingers.....

Stu

Not all of us younger ones feel the need to type without vowels and make ourselves sound downright stupid when we do. Just a personal jab against the internet, and especially text message related shorthand that appears oh-too-often now.


Back on topic. First, I must agree whole-heartedly with Woodwould that the craftsmen of old win hands down on a skill to technology ratio. I would put money on 95% of what the TAFE certificate calls a "cabinet maker" could not cut a joint, or even crosscut a piece of timber by hand with any decent level of accuracy. There is no skill in setting a machine to cut something at a particular size for you. You have no variables in that part of the process that could lead to error, apart from measuring something incorrectly. That is what I would define as skill, being able to construct something error free, when there is so many things you could mess up when making it. Someone who can do that is what I would consider a craftsman.

I often look in antique shops at what is apparently "antique" furniture. More often than not, half of it is a replica. Sure, you look at the drawers and think "oh, a dovetail", but that doesn't lead me to think that there was any skill in making the piece, as there is no skill in a machine doing it for you. True craftsmen also took much, much finer details into account - things you can't even define on paper - but you know something is the real article when you see those slight inconsistencies in the joint cuts, and the drawer on a chest glides out with weight and momentum, rather than a rasp and hollow rattle sound.

Now, I use a bandsaw for a lot of my stuff, including the waste removal on dovetails, so I can't claim to be a darksider. But really though, do you respect a piece of work, made by yourself or another, more when it's done by hand, or at least made in a situation where a lot of things can go wrong, or when it's just a bunch of numbers set on a machine to do it for you?

Another point to waffle about before I finish up. Someone mentioned being in touch with the material you are working with. I relate to this, it takes time to know when your tools are working properly, like that firm, but crisp feel when a plane, drill, or even bandsaw blade is sharp as a razor and slices through the wood, and I don't mean noticing visually that it is cutting slow, or you can see the wood catching alight from the friction. SilentC said something about chopping a mortise. This relates to being in touch with your material too, and that loss of skills. It takes experience to know if your chisel is cutting properly, if your cutting vertically, whether the wood is slicing or crushing and so on. Don't tell me that a mortise cut by a router has any value versus a properly cut one by hand.

Could go on and on and on but don't really want to get angry

Edited for the sake of good grammar.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

Ross seldom has a point; his objective is to stir.

Au contraire My intention is not to stir at all i just cant sit back in awe of you like so many others while you talk utter crap.
I dont question your knowledge of the period you are so fond of but nor do i believe it you to be in possession of a balanced view of the craft in general and seem to be both ignorant and apathetic about the craft in its curren t form.
You lord it over the rest of the forum with your "They dont make em like they used to" crap and when you are asked a sensible question by one of the most respected members her you just dodge the answer because you have a pathalogical need to be right all the time.
Anybody that does not agree with your dubious viewpoint gets talked down to or ignored and for me this forum was a more enjoyable place before you arrived with your vintage soapbox! I mostly avoid the forum now exactly because of threads like this and your imput in particular!

Originally Posted by Durdge39

There is no skill in setting a machine to cut something at a particular size for you. You have no variables in that part of the process that could lead to error, apart from measuring something incorrectly. That is what I would define as skill, being able to construct something error free, when there is so many things you could mess up when making it. Someone who can do that is what I would consider a craftsman.

I disagree, you are confusing a single operation using one machine with the construction of a complete object or device that requires many machines to be used properly and consistently, or one machine to be used in a variety of ways and you guys are also a bit too much stuck on wood, there are other crafts besides WW.

Using some single machines well is extremely challenging. I watch the young toolmaker at work today using a metal milling machine and compare him to our previous "old timer" with 35 years experience in metal milling - this guy milled the first prototype Concorde turbine by hand in the 1950s. That guy was a real craftsman, the young guy is good but still has a way to go to get up to the old timer.

My ally welding BIL is another excellent example of a craftsman. He used to build up to 60 ft ally boats by himself - he did the lot, weld up the entire boat, engine, upholstery, electrics. even painted it if you pay him. He uses tig and mig welders, oxy's and wood working electrical machinery. He curves, moulds and shapes ally like wood, adds features and extras that are not available on other boats and the result is one of the best boats you can buy in Australia. Recently he was hired as a trouble shooter for a major ally boat building company because the owner wanted a craftsman amongst his monkeys.

My cousins in Italy make cabins for overnight mountain climbers and walkers high in the Alps, just like my uncles and grand uncles used to. These cabins are little works of art with beautiful tight fitting complex joints, just like the ones my uncles and granduncles used to make. Inside they have wooden carved paneled linings, doors that fit tightly and double glazed windows, just like the ones my uncles and granduncles used to make. They have to withstand freezing icy conditions and high winds for a couple of decades before they are replaced just like the ones my uncles and granduncles used to make. They also mountain climb up to the sites to build the huts just like my uncles and granduncles used to. One difference from the past is the makings for the cabins are bought up to them using helicopters.

How do they make them. They have several very large computerized wood working machines that cost ~250,000 euros each. They put log size pieces in at one end, load the cabin specifications into the computer and complete super accurately cut and dressed kits are pumped out at the other end. Do they consider themselves craftsmen? You bet they do. The level of detail in the work they do is exquisite (and according to one 86 year old uncle the result is better longer lasting cabins than the ones he used to make) it's just different technology, they still have to select good materials, carefully plan what they do, make sure the cutting and drilling gear is razor sharp, and driving those tools to make a profit takes a wider range of different skills. Their financial risk is much higher because they have massive loans to pay back and sometimes whole kits are chipped because of a series or even just one major mistake. Just like a craftsman, when things go wrong they have to recover from mistakes, they crawl inside machinery to remove jammed pieces of wood, resharpen cutting edges, repack timber to a different specification and reprogram their computers to salvage as much timber as they can. These are real skills.

Quoting your statement above "what I would define as skill, being able to construct something error free, when there is so many things you could mess up when making it. Someone who can do that is what I would consider a craftsman". When they make these cabins there are a zillion things that could go wrong, if that is your definition then these guys really are craftsmen.

Don't tell me that a mortise cut by a router has any value versus a properly cut one by hand.

Has any value? What are you on?

Ross and others,

PLEASE, PLEASE do not bring this forum down with squabbles. This place is keeping me alive and I'm sure it does for so many others. A good many friendships have been formed here, so let's not waste it.

Yep, have different points of view, but don't get personal.

I haven't met all of you, but those that I have are all different and interesting. Some I really call mates.

Clearly, there are different points of view out there as to what constitutes a "master" wood/ timber/ turner / furniture maker. With all the gear out there, cutting, chopping etc, it's hard to know what the "ultimate" skill really is these days. (For me, it's glue up time).

As I said earlier, in years past the apprentice probably spent the first year or two doing DAR and little else. In maybe Year 3 they might have glued some boards etc etc.....

But by Year 5 or 6, with the machinery and tools available, they no doubt were quite adept at using hand tools. That's all they had.

Time has moved on. I look at some of the antique furniture in shops (remembering that time and timber moves) and really wonder....

IMHO I want a 16 year old (or other youngster with dark side leanings) to come up to my shed and show me how it's done with hand planes. I've got maybe five (two really good ones) in working order, plus probably another dozen wood planes that I keep for many reasons, including the respect for those that did it differently in years past.

This wood working thing is about pleasure. If you want to cut mortices with a chisel, then cut a tenon with a hand saw and refine the fit with a plane, great.

But some cannot do it. Some need tools and machinery. Some do it out of necessity, mostly time and money. (Thankfully, that's not all of us).

And, I see a lot of absolute crap stuff that comes out of factories with all the machines we'd all like in our sheds.

I sent a PM off to WoodWould this arvo along the same lines (and also asking him to let the personal stuff go by). I also said that I had the opportunity many years back to learn about French polishing but passed on it. I regret it now.

Geez, this really is a hard one. Do you want to stay true to heritage and turn a spindle with leg power? Or flick the switch on a Vicmark VL 300 and get variable speed at the dial of a button? As I said, time is short and for me the VL 300 does it for me.

If I had my time again......

But I do accept, respect that SOME of our current woodworkers do great work. I don't like all of it (just take a lot at the back of a hutch or bookcase in any furniture store) but some do great work using the tools / machines available.

Whether what I or others make in a couple of decades / centuries is another matter.

I think that's what we should aim for. We won't know by then (obviously) whether our work stood the test of time, but it's still the benchmark.

I see so much great work on the board that I feel truly humble. Stuff from OS and Oz that I aspire to replicate. I don't know how some of the makers made it, but it truly inspires. And in saying that, I almost shed a tear when I look at the tool chest (chisels, planes and handsaws) that have been handed on to me from a true cabinet maker from the early 1900's.

Please, respect the views out there. I've got a shed full of gear plus some great hand tools for any that want to come and visit. Ten ways to skin a cat.

Jeff

Originally Posted by Durdge39

First, I must agree whole-heartedly with Woodwould that the craftsmen of old win hands down on a skill to technology ratio.

Im still waiting for someone to explain what that means. Does it go something like, "Theirs only a limited amount of craftsmen in the world today whose ability by hand, using limited recourses a match for their counterparts from the 17th and 18th century"

Are we really that bad?

Mate you are talking to an 18 year old.

I find this fascinating, here people are weighing up the pros and cons of the old ways verse technology and are communicating the whole affair with a worldwide audience, via very sophisticated technology indeed, the internet, imagine trying such a heated debate using "carrier pigeons"

Cheers

Steve

Originally Posted by Different

Au contraire My intention is not to stir at all i just cant sit back in awe of you like so many others while you talk utter crap.
I dont question your knowledge of the period you are so fond of but nor do i believe it you to be in possession of a balanced view of the craft in general and seem to be both ignorant and apathetic about the craft in its curren t form.
You lord it over the rest of the forum with your "They dont make em like they used to" crap and when you are asked a sensible question by one of the most respected members her you just dodge the answer because you have a pathalogical need to be right all the time.
Anybody that does not agree with your dubious viewpoint gets talked down to or ignored and for me this forum was a more enjoyable place before you arrived with your vintage soapbox! I mostly avoid the forum now exactly because of threads like this and your imput in particular!

The most respected member's question was answered at least three times.

You know, you don't have to read my posts, but if my input on this forum has managed to keep you away, then I think the forum as a whole is indebted to me.

Originally Posted by Durdge39

Not all of us younger ones feel the need to type without vowels and make ourselves sound downright stupid when we do. Just a personal jab against the internet, and especially text message related shorthand that appears oh-too-often now.


Back on topic. First, I must agree whole-heartedly with Woodwould that the craftsmen of old win hands down on a skill to technology ratio. I would put money on 95% of what the TAFE certificate calls a "cabinet maker" could not cut a joint, or even crosscut a piece of timber by hand with any decent level of accuracy. There is no skill in setting a machine to cut something at a particular size for you. You have no variables in that part of the process that could lead to error, apart from measuring something incorrectly. That is what I would define as skill, being able to construct something error free, when there is so many things you could mess up when making it. Someone who can do that is what I would consider a craftsman.

I often look in antique shops at what is apparently "antique" furniture. More often than not, half of it is a replica. Sure, you look at the drawers and think "oh, a dovetail", but that doesn't lead me to think that there was any skill in making the piece, as there is no skill in a machine doing it for you. True craftsmen also took much, much finer details into account - things you can't even define on paper - but you know something is the real article when you see those slight inconsistencies in the joint cuts, and the drawer on a chest glides out with weight and momentum, rather than a rasp and hollow rattle sound.

Now, I use a bandsaw for a lot of my stuff, including the waste removal on dovetails, so I can't claim to be a darksider. But really though, do you respect a piece of work, made by yourself or another, more when it's done by hand, or at least made in a situation where a lot of things can go wrong, or when it's just a bunch of numbers set on a machine to do it for you?

Another point to waffle about before I finish up. Someone mentioned being in touch with the material you are working with. I relate to this, it takes time to know when your tools are working properly, like that firm, but crisp feel when a plane, drill, or even bandsaw blade is sharp as a razor and slices through the wood, and I don't mean noticing visually that it is cutting slow, or you can see the wood catching alight from the friction. SilentC said something about chopping a mortise. This relates to being in touch with your material too, and that loss of skills. It takes experience to know if your chisel is cutting properly, if your cutting vertically, whether the wood is slicing or crushing and so on. Don't tell me that a mortise cut by a router has any value versus a properly cut one by hand.

Could go on and on and on but don't really want to get angry

Edited for the sake of good grammar.

Its called the "power of control', I do all the texting stuff and on my phone and that, I can contro when and were I use it though, most young people can't.

Lignum, you aren't far off of it there. If you gave the what people consider qualified cabinetmakers, and what some consider craftsmen, the same hand tools as the 17th, and 18th century crafters used, most would fall flat on their faces. Yes it takes skill to do it by hand, more damned skill than getting a machine to do it for you. The skill in this craft is all about the control of one's hand in the end, regardless of what tools or machines you use, however, I find it hard to see that anyone could say that it is harder to do something right with a machine of today, than by hand. You can know all the theory in the world about wood working, but if you can't handle the tools to do it, then you aren't able to do it. It's much the same in reverse.

SilentC, I said what I did about the mortise because in my view, if I were to look at a machine cut mortise, I see no intrinsic value in it - someone didn't have to learn for hundreds of hours to cut that perfectly - a router did it all for them.

Also, do not use my age in regards to the value of my opinion, that is a deep insult to myself, and I would have thought that a usually well balanced member like yourself would know better.

Bullfrog, I see your view, I was just planting mine on the topic