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10th May 2008, 04:37 PM #46
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10th May 2008 04:37 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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26th August 2009, 01:36 AM #47
Zombie time - dead threads arise
Right, I'm resurrecting this thread because it's becomming obvious that this is where my next boat will come from.
The design brief. You'll note that it has changed slightly from a year ago, partly because I'm more mature, partly because change is nice (which means I'm not mature), partly because I've a bit more information under my belt.
So, back to the design brief:
Row boat - sorry, rowing only. I don't want sails and I don't want a hull that's been compromised to take them. Sadly, this seems to rule out Oughtred's offerings.
Beach boat - although it'll be used all over the place, this boat will need to be able to be launched (single handed) from our local beaches and returned to them. This would appear to be a limiting factor.
Length - major change from earlier in this thread where I was shocked at 17 foot boats. I still am but recent reading has led me to accept that with length comes efficiency. If I want a serious row boat, which I do, I will be building the longer boat.
I need to be able to haul said boat off its trailer or off the roof racks in a car park, drag her down a ramp to the beach (on some form of dolly), across said beach and there to launch into the wide blue wet stuff ... on my own! I'll usually have the dog with me but as an aid in launching a boat, he's useless except for chasing seagulls. Similarly, she needs to be able to do the return trip.
Conditions? I live on a shallow gulf with long, straight beaches that are exposed, sandy and generally get deep reasonably quickly ie, you're at knee deep pretty quickly. The water is choppy and while they aren't considered surf beaches (most of the time), you do have to row out through breaking waves. Being a boring old phart, I won't be going out if it's horrid but this being the real world, I could easily find myself returning in horrid conditions. For the sake of setting an upper limit, I'd like to be able to launch her in any conditions you'd launch your racing dinghy eg, a Heron though to be brutally honest, I have personally sailed my own Heron in conditions where I'd leave the rowboat on it's trailer and drink coffee while watching other silly barstewards get wet.
I'm building Mik's rowing skiff. She's a flat water craft. What I'm looking for is a companion boat that I can sail in coastal waters where the only flat bit is where you've just whacked yourself on the underside of a jetty
Richard
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26th August 2009, 01:40 AM #48
Earlier in this thread, PAR suggested his RYD 12.6.
She fits the requirements well but is possibly a little short. However, maybe that slight shortness is a positive when close in shore. She does have that nice, flat garboard for beach landings and can be built lapstrake which I love.
She's still on the list Paul ... but do you have a longer version? On reflection, do I need a longer version?
Richard
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26th August 2009, 01:42 AM #49
Then there's the Herreshoft.
At 17', I initially rejected her but she's right back in the mix, particularly after reading and re-reading Gardner's description of her. She does have the flat bottom but is this enough to make her a good beach boat? Is she too long for a bit of surf when single handed?
Richard
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26th August 2009, 01:50 AM #50
The new kid on the block is Clint's (compass project) Drake.
This is a boat I could love as she ticks lots of boxes for me. Clint himself loves her and feels unwilling to fully express his feelings for this boat in places where his wife might read them
To his credit though, Clint has pointed out that her hull shape (not flat bottomed) means she is probably not suited to life off the beach.
Clint has suggested I look at dories and while he didn't go into any detail, I suspect he meant the Swampscott type dory with the rounded bilges as opposed to the Banks Dory with the slab sides.
If I do go for a dory, it would have to be a modern boat designed to be built light for the recreational rower. As Mik, Gardner and others have pointed out, the original working dories were hard working boats that were tricky until heavily laden with fish. But that's cool, Clint also designs dories ... and Paul's lovely RYD 12.6 has that flat bottom feel and ...
Richard
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26th August 2009, 01:53 AM #51
So that's where I'se at kiddies - confused
Not really. I'm getting there. I have three talented designers helping me and the rest of this internet thingy to back me up and the Pat McGuire Maritime Collection at the State Library for published material. I could just shut up and do my research in private but I'm hoping that by being open about it, someone else may have some questions answered as well.
Richard
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26th August 2009, 01:59 AM #52
Regarding the Adorindack Guideboats - apart from a shortage of genuine plans, the high bow and stern don't appeal in our windy conditions. The low mid section is intended to allow the use of crossed oars, which I will not be doing and I can't really see the point in lowering the freeboard to allow for something I don't intend to do. Yes, they are a fine boat but I've looked at them and rejected them.
Richard
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26th August 2009, 02:43 AM #53
While on the subject of resurrected threads, Paul - have you set up that intenet site
yet that you were going to have up by the end of May? ... 2008 !!
cheers
AJ
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26th August 2009, 07:47 AM #54
Oh, hell no, but I've gotten a lot of other stuff done. I thought this was Richard's row boat dream blog. I didn't realize we could add to it . . .
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26th August 2009, 06:24 PM #55SENIOR MEMBER
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Although earlier you dismissed offering by Iain Oughtred, there is one design of his that seems to me to fit your planned use, but yet again Iain has added an optional sailing rig, so perhaps it's a no.
Paul Garside has to be a leading contender with his experience in designing and using row boats on the sea. He seems to feel strongly that a double ended design is important for beach landings in surf. So ok, double ender.
A long thread on the WBF about using a boat from a surf beach came up with good ideas. A strong thread was just how seaworthy the narrow flat bottomed, round sided shape is in these conditions. Such as the Herreshoft and others.
So, double ended, plank keel, rounded sides.
Now it just happens that Iain has a design which is mentioned very little, the Skerrieskiff. It's plank keeled, two planks per side and double ended.
http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Ca...5%20&%2017.pdf
Her beam at 4'7" is the same as the Garside boats, Flashboat and Bob.
She is very minimal which I like. Designed for a very fast, low cost build. A group of kids built two in 10 days.
So, I had been thinking it would be an interesting boat to try in my local sea conditions, when one turned up last week on eBay. The builder had removed the sail, the trailer, and the oars. Since I have a trailer, can make a sail and have some spare oars I put in a low bid and won her, on my birthday last week. (Needed cheering up you see).
So here she is
So far only managed one short row and she was enchanting. The view looking at the stern delightful. Quite a narrow pointy stern, but lots of buoyancy in the lower stern to give lift in a wave. The builder mentioned how she will surge on a wave, sort of plane on the flat bottom. Another rower I know also mentioned how this form will surge on a wave - quite good fun he said.
Will let you know how things go. Have made the little sail already this week. Adapted MIK's design, hope he does not mind!
Perhaps not quite right, but a good number of features which seem to be required in an inshore coastal rower.
My oars are far too crude and unbalanced for the Skerrieskiff so I too would be grateful for advice on replacements. I rowed an Oughtred Elf with the long thin blades and they seemed perfect.
Brian
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26th August 2009, 06:51 PM #56
Good buy there Brian, and on your birthday too, someone's looking after you
Mik's website has some free plans for scoop bladed oars.
I've used Jim Michalak's oar plans to good effect and will probably use them again for the Little Black Dog but stretched out to 8'.
I may have this wrong, but my reading of this rowing caper is that when a boat is designed for both rowing and sailing, you will often find the beam pushed out to improve the sailing characteristics at the expense of the rowing characteristics. As far as beam for a specialist rowboat goes (which is what I'm after), 4' is about the maximum you want. I therefore feel that Iain's boats have been 'compromised' to improve the sailing characteristics. This doesn't mean they don't row well, just that they aren't specialist rowboats. Those who know better, please feel free to set me straight if I have this wrong.
I'm not planning to include any sailing bits in my boat so if the extra beam is a negative, it's probably not worth me building a boat that's had it's rowing compromised to take sail.
Complexity isn't a problem, I'm building my 'quick build' boat now, Mik's Rowboat and expect to exploit her flat water ability to great effect while building the next boat ... whatever it is
I find the rest of your comments interesting though. I'll be interested to hear how your Skerrieskiff goes in rough water.
And Paul Gartside is a name I should be looking at eh? Thanks for the tip.
Richard
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26th August 2009, 07:32 PM #57Novice
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26th August 2009, 07:36 PM #58
Paul Gartside's 'Bob' - described as an 'open water cruising skiff'. Yes, it has a sail but only for down wind runs.
16' long
4' 7" wide
Maybe we are building them wider now.
Clint, you give a nod to Bob in your comments about Drake. Like to comment further?
Richard
damn this research, I was happier when I only had one plan to build
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26th August 2009, 07:39 PM #59
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26th August 2009, 08:59 PM #60SENIOR MEMBER
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Richard, my take on the beam is this. You need to avoid riggers, but also need a good spread on the oarlocks to give rowing power. So push out the gunnels. Paul's Flashboat and Bob are rowing boats uncompromised yet their beams are the same as Skerrieskiff. I think this shows you are looking for 4'7" ish for a coastal rower.
I guess it's the water line beam that makes Flashboat and Bob pure rowers. Compare theirs to Skerrieskiff. However for surf work experienced people seem to strongly favour plank keel/round hull shapes. Makes sense.
Perhaps Iain's plank is a bit wider? He does describe them as rowing hulls in his blurb. Perhaps the compromise is only small when you have chosen a plank keel for the surf anyway.
The pure rowing form can be very tippy. See this picture by John Hesp of Flashboats launching. Notice the crew almost gunnel down.
and how narrow the waterline is
No 38 is a Cornish Skiff, very lovely. In the background see how the Flashboats have very narrow water planes.
All these pictures are by John Hesp.
When I climb in the Skerrieskiff, she seemed just about steady enough for me!
Brian
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